Russia blocks sale of engines for Sino-Pak fighter jets

Discussion in 'Pakistan Air Force' started by Choppers, Jul 5, 2010.

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  1. notorious_eagle
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    notorious_eagle PDF THINK TANK: CONSULTANT

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    The Chinese have decided to add 150 FC-1's, wouldn't hurt if you would actually do your own research. The reason why they haven't inducted it immediately is because they are conducting further tests and waiting for the WS13 to come online.
  2. ramu
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    ramu SENIOR MEMBER

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    Russia And China Wait For Someone To Blink

    July 8, 2010: Russia is increasingly upset at how blatantly China has been copying Russian military equipment, and selling the copies in competition with the Russian originals. Particularly annoying is China’s building copies of the Su-27 (as the J-11 and the carrier version as the J-15.) Now Russia is threatening to play hardball, by refusing to sell China the high-performance engines needed for Chinese built fighters. A Chinese order for several hundred Russian RD93 jet engines from Russia is on hold. This order is believed to be for an ungraded RD93, with additional thrust. India, currently the major customer for Russian weapons, was not happy about this engine sale, which will be used for Chinese made fighters sold to Pakistan. As of last year, India and Russia had worked out an unpublicized compromise to allow the sale, but now Russia is threatening to halt shipments if China does not back off on building illegal copies of Russian aircraft. China is a major customer for RD93 engines (originally designed for the MiG-29), and has already bought over a thousand of them. The RD93 engines currently cost about $2.5 million each. Halting the sale will cost Russian engine manufacturers over a billion dollars in revenue. But the Russians are tired of getting played by the Chinese, and believe that Chinese attempts to copy the RD93 are not succeeding, and China will be forced to pay licensing fees for the stolen Russian tech, or else equip their aircraft with inferior Chinese copies (the WS-13) of the Russian engines.
    The Chinese made JF-17 (also known as FC-1) jet fighters are exported to Pakistan, and are being offered to Algeria, Egypt, Nigeria, Bangladesh, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Burma, Iran and Sri Lanka as inexpensive alternatives to American and Russian fighters. Hundreds of JF-17s are also going to be built in Pakistan, mainly using Chinese parts.

    China has been developing a similar (apparently identical) engine to the RD93, the WS-13. Actually, this effort was aided by Russia for a while, by selling China technology needed for the manufacture of key engine components. Russia wasn't happy about this, because they didn't want competition in the low cost jet engine market. Then again, China has a history of stealing technology it cannot buy, so the Russians tried to make the best of a bad situation. China says the WS-13 is ready for service. The Russians believe otherwise. Building high performance military jet engines is difficult, and China has had problems mastering this kind of stuff. Not that they will not eventually acquire the skills, but until they do, they need the Russian made RD93s. Or so the Russians believe. Officially, China is still ordering RD93s because they cannot produce enough of their WS-13s.

    Pakistan began receiving JF-17s three years ago, and activated its first JF-17 squadron five month ago. Last year, it signed a deal to buy the next 42, of 300, of these jets from China. These 42 will cost $14.3 million per aircraft. The final 250 will cost $12 million each. The aircraft is assembled in both Pakistan and China, with the engines coming from Russia, and most of the other components from China (which calls the aircraft the FC-1).

    When the first JF-17 fighter arrived in Pakistan three years ago, it ended over twenty years of development for what was first called the Super 7 fighter. The JF-17 was developed by China in cooperation with Pakistan, which originally only wanted to buy 150 of them. All this came about because Pakistan could not get modern fighters from anyone else, and turned to China. At the time, China had nothing comparable to the early model F-16s Pakistan already had.

    The 13 ton JF-17 is meant to be a low cost alternative to the American F-16. The JF-17 is considered the equal to earlier versions of the F-16, but only 80 percent as effective as more recent F16 models. The JF-17 design is based on a cancelled Russian project, the MiG-33. Most of the JF-17 electronics are Western, with Italian firms being major suppliers.

    The JF-17 can carry 3.6 tons of weapons and use radar guided and heat seeking missiles. It has max speed of nearly 2,000 kilometers an hour, an operating range of 1,300 kilometers and a max altitude of nearly 18,000 meters (55,000 feet). China has not yet decided on whether it will use the FC-1/JF-17 itself. This is apparently because China believes its own J-10 (another local design) and J-11 (a license built Russian Su-27) are adequate for their needs. The J-10, like the JF-17, did not work out as well as was hoped, but that's another matter.

    Winning: Russia And China Wait For Someone To Blink
    :cheers:
  3. ramu
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    ramu SENIOR MEMBER

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    Eagle, I have done my research and your claims of further testing is subject to interpretation (no offense). You would look at it in a different way and that is exactly why we are discussing.

    Why are the tests second nature for Pakistan? Can the tests results not help Pakistan build a better plane ?

    :cheers:
  4. ptldM3
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    ptldM3 SENIOR MEMBER

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    And what have they been saying exactly?

    People on this forum have wild imaginations, seeing things that are not there, connecting lines where there are none, and making a negative appear to be a postive.

    The JF-17 threatens the Mig-29 in price. The JF-17 is good but it is not better then the Mig-29; the Mig-29 now offers AESA, TVC, true BVR missles, HMC, OLS, and just about anything else a customer can want. The problem is, if an airforce wants a good fighter at a cheaper price they now have the option of the JF-17, which now makes it extreemly enticing to customers considering the Mig-29. Or in other words, why purchase 20 Migs when you can perchase 30 JF-17's?
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2010
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  5. MastanKhan
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    MastanKhan PDF VETERAN

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    Hi,

    That is an interesting question---seems like china is well on its way with the J 10 program----that is their primary focus at this stage----for they want a serious frontline air superiority fighter---J 10 and J 10B.

    I firmly beleive that if the pak had a choice of getting the J 10 in 2001----they would have gone that way----. While china is well on its way of manufacturing the J 10 to meet its primary needs----they may decide otherwise later on.

    You also have to look at the geographic area of china as compared to pakistan---what may fit pakistan like a glove---maybe or may not be suitable for china---.

    China cannot diversify its fighter program right now until it has the engine issues resolved. One engine issue is a handful----two engine issues are asking for the BULL.

    As for as the competitiveness of the mig 29---it is purely based on the speculation created by the the mig bureau---if they didnot have such a big worry over their heads of losing multi billion dollar contracts to JF 17----people would never had put the JF 17 on the pedastal that it has been put on in the last week.

    10 days ago---the JF 17 was a newcomer---okay--yeah it is a news paf plane---blah blah blah----now today---mig bureau has made a monster out of it.

    I guess----mig corp would know the truth better than you and me----now wouldn't they.:pakistan::china:
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  6. ramu
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    ramu SENIOR MEMBER

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    JF-17 is a winner in price and countries like Sri Lanka who are not pressed for an active air force can get JF-17s and make the most of it. Same could be the case with Bangladesh but I still think their needs are different.

    Russians may be concerned about the price and the leverage they had over decades for making the cheapest fighters that could challenge the western planes. However, the contest with Mig 29 and JF-17 is wishful thinking at best.
    :cheers:
  7. MastanKhan
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    Hi,

    Sir---in two to three years time the JF 17 would be offering the similiar things.

    Price is not the only attraction----the plane itself has to show itself and compete.

    The mig is in for the 2nd surprise of its life.
  8. ramu
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    ramu SENIOR MEMBER

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    In two or three years, we expect some competition from India ... ;)

    :cheers:
  9. ptldM3
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    ptldM3 SENIOR MEMBER

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    This is what i'm talking about with people making assumptions. The JF-17 will have AESA, TVC, OLS in three years? Source please.

    You are also leaving out fundamentals. The Mig-29 has matured over time, its avionics have improved and evolved and as so the Russians have aquired knowledge from improving upon systems. The Russians have also been working on things such as OLS, HMC, and TVC for decades, so what makes you think that someone can just leap-frog the Russians and create something on par or better then them with little or no previous expirence? Let me take the pak-fa, for example, the pak-fa will likely not have the same rcs as the F-22 simply because Sukhoi doesn't have enough experience in that feild.

    Right now the JF-17 is a good fighter but not as mature as the Mig-29, as time passes the JF-17 will also mature and get better esspecially if it receives some quality western avionics which i'm sure it will sooner or later.

    And what is this suprise??? I can also throw out general and vague statements such as the one above but that would prove absolutely nothing. Again old down-graded Mig-29's have scored many kills against F-16's and F-18 in mock combat, that should give you an idea about what kind of aircraft the Mig-29 is.

    Nothing has been reported about the JF-17 being on par with the Mig-29 so please do not make assumptions, the topic is about the JF-17's export potential and RD-93 engines not about who is better then who. Just because the JF-17s price is a concern doesn't mean you and everyone else needs to jump the gun by interpreting that as a sign that the the JF-17 has matched or surpassed the Mig-29.
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2010
  10. Adios Amigo
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    Adios Amigo MODERATOR

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    This is the point I have been pondering upon, and has spoken about in a couple of posts. Indeed an intensive propaganda campaign has been launched by the Russian thinking quarters against China and its Military Capabilities and the fact that it has caught up with Russia, specially in the field of Aviation.

    In 2009, Myanmar chose Russian Mig-29s over Chinese J-10s and FC-1s.

    This is what we have been hearing for a long time from Russian and only Russian sources. Now the question arises when did Myanmar put a competition on lines of Indian MMRCA, to pick up the best possible fighter? Another more Important thing to consider is, when was Myanmar offered J-10s?? Given the kind of Relations Pakistan and china enjoys, no one in the world falls in that radius. The first and only customer that is in line for J-10s is Pakistan, and it too have to wait till 2014. No one else is yet offered this Aircraft, Kim John also tried his luck and we know the outcome, Iran is also tapping its fingers for it, how come Myanmar became more important then Pakistan all of a sudden and that too only for just 20 jets??? Another aspect to consider, is that why would china like to put 2 fighters in a contest to win?? I am 101% convinced that Myanmar haven't even been allowed to evaluate J-10s, hell I am even spectacle that if they had evaluated Jf-17, given the fact the agreement for engines between Russia and china for re-export to other countries does not include the name of Myanmar, nor it had been ever mentioned as potential buyer for it in the past, so how come it is possible that some thing extra ordinary took place and Jf-17 was up in for the competition. All this has been done by Russia to demonstrate that Chinese product are inferior to Russian, and not only Jf-17 but J-10 too is not a match for the Mighty Migs.

    Until I see something from Official sources of Myanmar about such a competition, I am not going to buy this Russian claim. And in my view its total propaganda, showing the Russian fear.
    Another such case has also been build up against J-15. If you ever watch the documentaries and reports by Russian media.




    :pakistan:

    Adios
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  11. Manticore
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    Manticore SENIOR MODERATOR

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    The high wing loading favors low fliers and the moderate wing sweep helps handling at lower speeds often necessary during ordnance delivery. The J-10 is thus not ideal for the CAS role. However, because of the range and payload advantages, the J-10 can be considered an effective deep striker. CAS was never a pressing need for the PLAAF, and the PAF has the JF-17 which is ideal for that role.

    Further, the JF-17s would not only allow PAF to counter numbers, but also allow her to maintain larger numbers of FC-20s and F-16s for war-time and lower their depreciation - providing a low cost training aircraft to fly liberally during peacetime. This would be a similar arrangement to how the Israeli Air Force uses F-16s to keep meet the flight time allocations of its F-15 pilots.

    The Dragon's New Claws: The J-10B Emerging - Grande Strategy




    Close air support. Beyond the long-serving Nanchang Q-5 ground-attack fighter, the PLAAF has not acquired a modern close air-support fighter like the U.S. Fairchild A-10 THUNDERBOLT II or the Sukhoi Su-25 FROGFOOT. The A-10 and Su-25 can fire a variety of PGMs and carry heavy armor-busting machine guns. They are also equipped with heavy armor protection to allow the fighter to dwell over the battlefield to provide continuous protection. There are also reports that some Q-5s are being modified to carry laser-guided bombs, but these reports have not been confirmed. There is a recent report of an abortive “Q-6” fighter program, which resembled the swing-wing Mikoyan MiG-27 FLOGGER ground-attack fighter. [52]

    It is also possible that the Hongdu L-15 trainer could be developed into a ground attack variant, as have many other trainers in its class. The L-15’s high-wing configuration makes possible a useful weapons load and itstwin-engines enhance survivability over the battlefield.

    For the PLA’s near-term close air-support needs, however, perhaps a large number of dumb bomb-carrying Q-5 and J-6 fighters may be sufficient. In addition, the Army’s “Z-10” attack helicopter program may be produced in sufficient numbers to provide a necessary level of close air support.

    International Assessment and Strategy Center > Research > PLAAF Equipment Trends
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2010
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  12. MastanKhan
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    MastanKhan PDF VETERAN

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    Hi Adeos Amigo,

    I believe that the myanmar got the mig 29's that were rejected by algeria or morocco. The planes had some issues originally---the russians took them back---took care of the problems and put them up for sale---myanmars was looking for the aicrafts---the russians possibly gave them a price on the package that they couldnot say no to---plus it was also a matter of expedited delivery.

    It is an extremely potent aircraft----can myanmar keep it aflying----that is the question.
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  13. Arsalan
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    atlast some Indian fan boys have agreed to what JF17 is really capable of doing. we have always been listening from them that JF17 is no match for the Migs 29 and the Su27 let alone the Su 30! the only plane that JF can match, and, that too just to some extent will be the Mig21.

    now here we have the Russians, the manufacturers, blocking engines for JF, creating hurdles, just because that get the feeling the JF17 will be preferred over there Mig 29 in internation market.

    for me this is really a great motivation news. we will inshallah sort this issue and the news will inshallah serve as advertisement for JF17 in export market.

    Long Live Pakistan!!

    regards!
  14. wangrong
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    wangrong SENIOR MEMBER

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    [​IMG]

    J15 new pic
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  15. AVIAN
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    AVIAN FULL MEMBER

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    CAS is always considered as a major operational mission for any other modern jet. Make of the particuler jet doesn't determine its mission planning and combact use. I failed to understand your contention of lack of pressing need of PLAAF for CAS role which is major area of warfighting in the light of evolving nature of battlefield. Heck, USAF's many modern jet of Vipers and F-15 catagory were proving to be a major airborne jets known for effective CAS Role.
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