RAW Vs ISI

Discussion in 'Indian Defence Forum' started by chaman, Jan 13, 2008.

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  1. chaman
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    chaman BANNED

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    which is the best ?

    in terms of

    - budget
    - agent
    - prowess
    - no of active agents in India and PAkistan
    - Modus Operanda
    - Achievments


    Recent Rumours

    - Pakistan has 35000 strong agents through out India. Not just in Muslim Population but in Hindus, Dalits, Christians

    - India doesnt have that high number BUT they have infilterated in the Armed Forces at a higher level

    - India has a mole at a very high echelon in ISI

    - Pakistan is planning a strong build up in Bangladesh and is planning to reverse 1971 situatio y building an East and West Pakistan again...

    - USA is planning Air Strike in NWFP to flush out AL Qaeda

    - Britain is the most Active Intelligence Agency in Pakistan (as aginst popular belief India). The situation changed drastically after london bombings....



    Source --- Wont confirm anything....

    You guys are free to agree / disagree any % of the above

    :pdf::pdf::pdf::pdf::pdf:
  2. F.O.X
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    I disagree all of the things above, but since you are keen to know let me clarife it for you.

    1. ISI consist of Approximately 15000 men through out the world not in India.

    2. The Infiltration Rate of ISI is Very Very High then that of Raw, there is currently no incidence which shows Raw infiltrate Pak Military Secrets, if there are any the agents were caught. Like in the Issue of Blue Print of AQ Khan Lab.

    3. Wrong, Even i doubt that ISI have a mole in High authorities of Raw.

    4. Pakistan is not Planing, but ISI is more stronger in BD then of NSI(BD Intelligence)

    & the Else you have written is Blah Blah Blah.



    Regards
    Wilco
  3. F.O.X
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    Here are some Major Success of ISI.

    * In the 1950s, the ISI's Covert Action Division was used in assisting the insurgents in India's North-East and its role was expanded in the late 1960s to assist the Sikh Home Rule Movement of London-based Charan Singh Panchi, which was subsequently transformed into the Khalistan Movement, headed by Jagjit Singh Chauhan in which many other members of the Sikh diaspora in Europe, United States and Canada joined and then demanded the separate country of Khalistan. The U.S. Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) and ISI worked in tandem during the Nixon Administration in assisting the Khalistan movement in Punjab.[19]

    * ISI decided to spy on the residence of Colonel Hussain Imam Mabruk who was a Military Attaché to the Embassy of Libya in Islamabad as he had made some inflammatory statements towards the military regime of Zia-ul-Haq. The spying paid off as he was seen talking with two Pakistani gentlemen who entered and left the compound suspiciously. The ISI monitored the two men and were later identified as Pakistani exiles that hated the current military regime and were Bhutto loyalists. They had received terrorist training in Libya and were ready to embark on a terrorist campaign in Pakistan to force the Army to step down from power. All members of the conspiracy were apprehended before any damage could be done.[20]

    * ISI foiled an attempt by the French Ambassador to Pakistan, Le Gourrierce and his First Secretary, Jean Forlot who were on a surveillance mission to Kahuta nuclear complex on June 26, 1979. Both were intercepted and their cameras and other sensitive equipment were confiscated. Intercepted documents later on showed that the two were recruited by the CIA.[20]

    * After the failure of Operation Eagle Claw, the U.S. media outlets such as Newsweek and Time reported that CIA agents stationed in Tehran had obtained information in regard to the location of the hostages, in-house information from a Pakistani cook who used to work for the U.S. Embassy. ISI successfully gathered evidence, and intercepted communication documents and showed it to the Iranian Chief of J-2 which cleared the cook. The Iranian chief of intelligence said, “We know, the Big Satan is a big liar.”[20]

    * ISI successfully intercepted two American private weapons dealers during the Soviet-Afghan war of the 1980s. One American diplomat (his name has not been de-classified) who lived in the F-7/4 sector of Islamabad was spotted by an ISI agent in a seedy part of Rawalpindi by his Car's diplomatic plates. He was bugged and trailed and was found to be in contact with various tribal groups supplying them with weapons for their fight with the Soviet Army in Afghanistan. Another was Eugene Clegg, a teacher in the American International School who also indulged in weapons trade. All of them were put out of business.[20]

    * ISI had placed a mole in the Soviet Embassy in Islamabad. The mole reported that the Third Secretary in the Soviet Embassy was after information in regard to the Karakurum Highway and was obtaining it from a middle level employee, Mr. Ejaz, of the Northern Motor Transport Company. ISI contacted Mr. Ejaz who then confessed that a few months ago the Soviet diplomat approached him and threatened his family unless he divulged sensitive information in regard to the highway such as alignment of the road, location of bridges, the number of Chinese personnel working on the Highway, etc. The ISI instead of confronting the Soviet diplomat chose to feed him with false information. This continued until the Soviet diplomat was satisfied that Mr. Ejaz had been bled white of all the information and then dropped him as a source.[20]

    * Worrying that among the large influx of Afghan refugees that come into Pakistan due to the Soviet-Afghan war were members of KHAD (Afghan Intelligence), the ISI successfully convinced Mansoor Ahmed who was the Charge-de-Affairs of the Afghan Embassy in Islamabad to turn his back on the Soviet backed Afghan government. He and his family were secretly escorted out of their residence and were given safe passage on a London bound British Airways flight in exchange for classified information in regard to Afghan agents in Pakistan. The Soviet and Afghan diplomats tried their best to find the family but were unsuccessful.[20]

    * A routine background checks on various staff members working for the Indian embassy raised suspicions on an Indian woman who worked as a school teacher in an Indian School in Islamabad. Her enthusiastic and too friendly attitude gave her up. She was in reality was an agent working for the Research and Analysis Wing (RAW). ISI monitored her movements to a hotel in Islamabad where she rendezvoused with a local Pakistani man who worked as an engineer for Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission. ISI then confronted her and were then able to turn her into a double agent spying on the Indian Embassy in Islamabad.[20]

    * ISI became aware of a plot to assassinate the President of Pakistan, Zia-ul-Haq and then launch a bloody coup to depose the current government and install an extreme Islamic government in its place. The attempted assassination and coup was to occur on March 23, 1980 during the annual March 23 Pakistan day parade. The masterminds behind the coup were high ranking Military and Intelligence officers and were led by Major General Tajammal Hussain Malik, his son, Captain Naveed and his nephew Major Riaz, a former Military Intelligence officer. ISI decided against arresting these men outright because they did not know how deep this conspiracy went and kept these men under strict surveillance. As the date of the annual parade approached, ISI was satisfied that it had identified the major players in this conspiracy and then arrested these men along with quite a few high ranking military officers.[20]

    * Ilam Din also known as Ilmo was an infamous Indian spy working from Pakistan. He had eluded being captured many times but on March 23 at 3 a.m., Ilmo and two other Indian spies were apprehended by Pakistani Rangers as they were illegally crossing into Pakistan from India. Their mission was to spy and report back on the new military equipment that Pakistan will be showing in their annual March 23 Pakistan day parade. Ilmo after being thoroughly interrogated was then forced by the ISI to send false information to his RAW handlers in India. This process continued and many more Indian spies in Pakistan were flushed out such as Roop Lal.[20]

    * ISI uncovered a secret deal in which naval base facilities were granted by Indian Prime Minister Indira Gandhi to the USSR in Vizag and the Andaman & Nicobar Island and the alleged attachment of KGB advisers to the then Lieutenant General Sunderji who was the commander of Operation Bluestar in the Golden Temple in Amritsar in June 1984.[19]

    * ISI, CIA and Mossad carried out a covert transfer of Soviet-made Palestine Liberation Organization and Lebanese weapons captured by the Israelis during the Israeli invasion of Lebanon in June 1982 and their subsequent transfer to Pakistan and then into Afghanistan. All knowledge of this weapon transfer was kept secret and was only made public recently.

    * ISI played a central role in the U.S.-backed guerrilla war to oust the Soviet Army from Afghanistan in the 1980s. That Central Intelligence Agency (CIA)-backed effort flooded Pakistan with weapons and with Afghan, Pakistani and Arab "mujahideen", who were motivated to fight as a united force protecting fellow Muslims in Soviet occupied Afghanistan. The CIA relied on the ISI to train fighters, distribute arms, and channel money. The ISI trained about 83,000 Afghan mujahideen between 1983 and 1997, and dispatched them to Afghanistan.

    * CIA through the ISI promoted the smuggling of heroin into Afghanistan in order to turn the Soviet troops into heroin addicts and thus greatly reducing their fighting potential.[19] (different material from the reference)

    * Major General Sultan Habib who was an operative of the ISI's Joint Intelligence Miscellaneous department successfully procured nuclear material while being posted as the Defense Attaché in the Pakistani Embassy in Moscow from 1991 to 1993 and concurrently obtaining other materials from Central Asian Republics, Poland and the former Czechoslovakia. After Moscow, Major General Habib then coordinated shipping of missiles from North Korea and the training of Pakistani experts in the missile production. These two acts greatly enhanced Pakistan's Nuclear weapons program and their missile delivery systems.[19]

    * ISI engineered the takeover of Afghanistan by the hard-line Islamic Taliban regime after the fall of the Communist government in Kabul in 1992.



    Regards
    Wilco
  4. chaman
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    MATE -->
    1. By 35000 men I mean direct and indirect agent(but on payroll). Sikh Militancy on the rise in India. There is always Kashmir, & to keep the Kashmir pot boiling ..they need minimum of 10000 strong men.

    2. RAW warned Mr Mush (indirectly through vaijpayi)on attacks on his life once.

    3. There is RAW mole in ISI at a very high level, he was active till late 2005. Mushy was very furious because very high number of ISI operatives were caught in India.
    As for RAW it is fully infilterated by Russian Intelligence Agency and CIA. they got this agent mainly because he was a walk in i guess frustrated or he just wanted money.

    4. Dude BD is very strong dont underestimate them. BUT some pakistan military build up has started happening in BD.

    well you are entitled to your opinion and I am to mine...

    I am a neutral...

    But I am interested in Sub continent affairs

    I guess ISI and RAW are the new big game..like there was CIA and KGB during the cold war....

    I am impressed with both the organization....

    ISI is very proactive organization....ruthless and commanded by some very smart and intelligent
    people, second only to Mossad.

    RAW is a fat elephant.... but has an edge over ISI in terms of budget... what it can not do, it can buy...... but lacks the daring and dashing of ISI

    Both the countries now know war is futile... with nuclear weapons and all....

    so now the game will be played through intelligence agency and by their Special Forces regiment......

    it is a stalemate....

    But will have lot of classified and declassified stories and thats what I am interested in.......latest situation

    As of now ISI has an edge...but under Israeli guidance... RAW is also transforming.....
    :pakistan:

    :sniper:
  5. ahussains
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    The debate is good and nice as WILCO and say but what is your intrest in
    In my opinion if ISI is good and strong in Bangladesh this will be very intresting they are going to opend another front for the INDIANS ... they are already busy on many front this will give Pakistan and Edge over the Indians my opinion ... :yahoo:
  6. F.O.X
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    I am afraid i have to disagree with that, in 2002 the ISI Strength was about 11000 personals including Agents, Informets etc. & it has increased to 15000 in 2007 not to 35000 Write it down somewhere.

    This is what you call success no my friend it is common theory, every body who is involved in WAT his life is in danger.

    & i am George Bush if the above is true, Grow up my Friend Intelegence agencied are not like Police or Polititions & ISI agents caught??? Who, Where, When ,,now dont tell of some poor Muslim who was caught to be an ISI agent, bcoz your police cant do batter then this.

    We have stoped underestimating anybody , even if it is USA, India, Agf or BD but as i told you ISI is more stronger in BD then you cannot even imagine

    Yes! but opiniions are based in facets which yours are not.

    Yes i agree upon this one except one thing that not every thig is for sale.

    My Friend they are being Trained by KGB & Mossad from about 30years.

    I am sure you got what you want if not i am here to Help.


    Regards
    Wilco
  7. Proud to be Pakistani
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    Nice one Wilco...

    :rofl:
  8. F.O.X
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    :)




    Regards
    Wilco
  9. Contrarian
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    Contrarian ELITE MEMBER

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    Ridiculous thread.
  10. F.O.X
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    Ouchhh. It hearts Dosent it??




    Regards
    Wilco
  11. Flintlock
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    I'd say that ISI has done more damage to Pakistan itself than to any foreign country.
  12. IND
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    You got it bang on target. Good one mate!
  13. Contrarian
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    If your stupid enough to believe that i got hurt by this thread...
  14. mujahideen
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    I dont know who told you this. Well your people might believe anything negative about the ISI. Anything bad happens who do you blame? The ISI. With in 5 seconds of blast in India you know that the ISI is behind it, well if your government knows so much how come it is unable to stop the attack. Maybe it is your agencies harming your country.
  15. F.O.X
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    & if you are Stupid enough that i will belive what you are saying. GROW UP


    Regards
    Wilco
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