Questions about Butt/Khawaja clan and Kashmiri descendants in Pakistan

[_Khawaja]

Hey everybody, I got some questions about my heritage.

I'm of Pakistani descent and my family have Kashmiri ancestry, our forefathers migrated from Kashmir (around Sringar) to rural North Punjab near Sialkot & Gujranwala and later my grandparents branched out to other cities across Pakistan. We belong to the Butt clan but also use Khawaja as a our last name or title, now the thing is I'm confused about whether Khawajas and Butts are the same clan or we're 2 different clans.

From what I've read, most Kashmiris settled in Punjab adopted 'Butt' as their lastname as a collective identifier of their Kashmiri heritage even if they didn't actually belong to the Butt clan. Pretty much all people with the last name Butt also use Khawaja as a last name. All the men in my family get refered to as 'Butt saabs" in Pakistan however my father says we're actually Khawajas and Butt was just a collective name.

Is there a difference between the two clans? Did they descend from two different groups or castes in Kashmir? All I know is that my Great Great-Grandfathers and their fathers were rice sellers in Kashmir before settling across the near the Punjab-Jammu border and getting involved in business, so what clan or caste might we be? It is quite amazing how my family and ancestors manage to branch out across Pakistan and the world and get an education, now we have nothing to do with farming or agriculture though I do have some extended relatives left in Upper Punjab who haven't changed at all.

If there are any Butts/Khawajas on here, what do you know about the clan?

 

[Talwar e Pakistan]

Very similar to my family's story. We were forced out from rural outskirts of Srinagar and settled in Sialkot. But we are Gujjar.

 

[Kabira]

I think Kashmiri khawajas are supposed to be traders? That's the only difference.

 

[_Khawaja]

I think Kashmiri khawajas are supposed to be traders? That's the only difference.

That makes sense considering my family history, my ancestors were rice sellers in kashmir while my grand fathers and their fathers were businessmen in Punjab. I remember on other websites that Kashmiris Butts are actually brahmin or pandit converts, so would you say butts and khawajas belong to two different castes?

Very similar to my family's story. We were forced out from rural outskirts of Srinagar and settled in Sialkot. But we are Gujjar.

lol Some of my relatives are hotheaded and would get into fights over there, but my side of the family manage to get an education and move out.

 

[Kabira]

That makes sense considering my family history, my ancestors were rice sellers in kashmir while my grand fathers and their fathers were businessmen in Punjab. I remember on other websites that Kashmiris Butts are actually brahmin or pandit converts, so would you say butts and khawajas belong to two different castes?

I don't know much about kashmiri tribes. From what I've read on internet, kashmiri khawajas are supposed to be traders. Kashmiri Shaikh are supposed to be brahmin converts. And most others are just your average rural kashmiri.

 

[_Khawaja]

I don't know much about kashmiri tribes. From what I've read on internet, kashmiri khawajas are supposed to be traders. Kashmiri Shaikh are supposed to be brahmin converts. And most others are just your average rural kashmiri.

So what are Butts? Why do my people identify with it?

Are you also Butt?

Thanks

Another question I have is that, while it is likely that Khawaja/Butts are actually from the trader community of Kashmir, but the Khawaja title only existed after the Mughals or other central asians ruled over Kashmir but what was our previous name before we got the title.

I read in some places that the Wani clan, who are from the trader caste adopted Khawaja as a title during Mughal rule, I'm not sure about that.

 

[Shoaib Aziz]

Hey everybody, I got some questions about my heritage.

I'm of Pakistani descent and my family have Kashmiri ancestry, our forefathers migrated from Kashmir (around Sringar) to rural North Punjab near Sialkot & Gujranwala and later my grandparents branched out to other cities across Pakistan. We belong to the Butt clan but also use Khawaja as a our last name or title, now the thing is I'm confused about whether Khawajas and Butts are the same clan or we're 2 different clans.

From what I've read, most Kashmiris settled in Punjab adopted 'Butt' as their lastname as a collective identifier of their Kashmiri heritage even if they didn't actually belong to the Butt clan. Pretty much all people with the last name Butt also use Khawaja as a last name. All the men in my family get refered to as 'Butt saabs" in Pakistan however my father says we're actually Khawajas and Butt was just a collective name.

Is there a difference between the two clans? Did they descend from two different groups or castes in Kashmir? All I know is that my Great Great-Grandfathers and their fathers were rice sellers in Kashmir before settling across the near the Punjab-Jammu border and getting involved in business, so what clan or caste might we be? It is quite amazing how my family and ancestors manage to branch out across Pakistan and the world and get an education, now we have nothing to do with farming or agriculture though I do have some extended relatives left in Upper Punjab who haven't changed at all.

If there are any Butts/Khawajas on here, what do you know about the clan?

Khwaja is a persian title of honor adopted by some Brahmin converts like Sheikh, which is an Arabic title for scholar. So Khwaja and Sheikh are titles, which don't have any caste/ethnic link in their places of origin in Middle east. Bhat or Butt is of Brahmin origin and is used by Hindus also.

 

[Kabira]

So what are Butts? Why do my people identify with it?

Are you also Butt?

Thanks

Not butt. lol Butt's as you said are people of kashmiri decent. @Zibago is butt, maybe he can help you.

 

[_Khawaja]

I also have some question about ancestry tests? Have any Kashmiri-Punjabis gotten tested, what were their results? Also what Y dna is most common among Kashmiris?

 

[Zibago]

So what are Butts? Why do my people identify with it?

Are you also Butt?

Thanks

Another question I have is that, while it is likely that Khawaja/Butts are actually from the trader community of Kashmir, but the Khawaja title only existed after the Mughals or other central asians ruled over Kashmir but what was our previous name before we got the title.

I read in some places that the Wani clan, who are from the trader caste adopted Khawaja as a title during Mughal rule, I'm not sure about that.

Butt is the mutilated form of Bhat that were Brahmin Hindus they retained their caste name even after conversion while others adobted other titles like Sheikh(me)
During great famine when valley Muslims started migrating to Punjab indroves due to different pronunciation bhat became butt and for slme stramge reason all migramts from valley were being labelled butts even If they were from a different biradri

 

[saaju]

Well . here in Kashmir "BUTT" and ''KHAWAJA '' are two completely different clans , I don't think they have any connection or similarity ,

 

[Zibago]

Not butt. lol Butt's as you said are people of kashmiri decent. @Zibago is butt, maybe he can help you.

Zibago is no butt zibago is sheikh @Pakistani Exile is butt

 

[_Khawaja]

Butt is the mutilated form of Bhat that were Brahmin Hindus they retained their caste name even after conversion while others adobted other titles like Sheikh(me)
During great famine when valley Muslims started migrating to Punjab indroves due to different pronunciation bhat became butt and for slme stramge reason all migramts from valley were being labelled butts even If they were from a different biradri

Are you a Kashmiri sheikh? My fam uses both Butt and Khawaja, I don't know if it's the same thing.

Well . here in Kashmir "BUTT" and ''KHAWAJA '' are two completely different clans , I don't think they have any connection or similarity ,

Are you from the valley? What's the backgrounds of Khawaja's in Kashmir? Do they descend from Wanis?

Btw do any of you know the history of the Mir clan? It's a very common Kashmiri origin clan and probably the 2nd most common after 'Butt'. I read somewhere from the internet that 'Mir's are a "sub-clan" of the Butts, what does that mean? ?Is there any relation between Butts and Mirs?

 

[saaju]

Are you from the valley? What's the backgrounds of Khawaja's in Kashmir? Do they descend from Wanis?

Btw do any of you know the history of the Mir clan? It's a very common Kashmiri origin clan and probably the 2nd most common after 'Butt'. I read somewhere from the internet that 'Mir's are a "sub-clan" of the Butts, what does that mean? ?Is there any relation between Butts and Mirs?[/QUOTE]



Iam from azad kAshmir ... As I told you that khawaja and Butt's are different clans ( talking about present situation ) These two are dominant clans here showing no similarities ..
Wani or wain are extracts from some Hindu tribes
The Wain tribe is divided into many castes, such as the Tal-Wain (those who sell oil), Pui-Wain, Baand-Wain, Bas-Wain, Tarangar-Wain, Kakar-Wain, and Par-Wain.Due to the adoption of different trades by different clans, various branches of the tribe have come into existence.People from this tribe who have moved to Punjab most of whom call themselves Khawaja so khawaja's might have been extracted from wani's ..

Regarding to your second question once again Mir's and present day khawaja(previously wani's) are completely different clans ..

 

[_Khawaja]

Iam from azad kAshmir ... As I told you that khawaja and Butt's are different clans ( talking about present situation ) These two are dominant clans here showing no similarities ..
Wani or wain are extracts from some Hindu tribes
The Wain tribe is divided into many castes, such as the Tal-Wain (those who sell oil), Pui-Wain, Baand-Wain, Bas-Wain, Tarangar-Wain, Kakar-Wain, and Par-Wain.Due to the adoption of different trades by different clans, various branches of the tribe have come into existence.People from this tribe who have moved to Punjab most of whom call themselves Khawaja so khawaja's might have been extracted from wani's ..

Regarding to your second question once again Mir's and present day khawaja(previously wani's) are completely different clans ..

Well AJK and the valley are pretty different, I mean the Pahari Khawajas may be the same caste as the Punjabi Khawajas, but it isn't the same as Khawajas from the Kashmir valley. Similarly, Wyne and Wani are two different clans, the first one a native Punjabi clan while the other is a kashmiri clan. As for completely different, I don't think of the Kashmiri clans (Mir,Dars,Lones, Butts or Khawajas) are "completely different" from each other. Pretty much all the clans look the same in terms of facial features and language/culture.