Pakistan's Submarine Procurement

Discussion in 'Pakistan Navy' started by Mubashar_ali, Feb 12, 2008.

  1. Mubashar_ali

    Mubashar_ali FULL MEMBER

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    This was very great to achieve the ability to make sub now pakistan is making "Augusta" class subs. Here was some news that France has offered Pakistan to make more "upper class" subs. Has someone information about these
    :pakistan:
     
  2. asaad-ul-islam

    asaad-ul-islam SENIOR MEMBER

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    I've read somewhere, pakistan is perhaps the only country in south asia that is able to launch harpoon missiles from subs while submerged. is this true?
     
  3. waz

    waz MODERATOR

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    France did offer the Marlin but the Naval high brass didn’t think it offered a great deal of sophistication than the scorpene that will be operated by India. The Navy has been greatly impressed with the rival U-214 b y HDW and have their sights set on this vessel taking our sub tender. It is just a case of signing papers now.

    However the French are in the picture for surface ships that the Navy will put a tender out for.
     
  4. Proud to be Pakistani

    Proud to be Pakistani SENIOR MEMBER

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    I agree WAZ, but Malin will incorporate more from Baracuda Sub which is one of the best in Nuclear Submarine Class at the moment and will be far forward in tech from U-214s or Scorpene. The reason Pakistan was reluctant was that Marlin is a new design and will require more integration and testing to fit the requirements. Agosta and Scorpene are on par. But when Agosta Project with MESMA was lauched the system was also new and not available elsewhere.

    Pakistan should go French way in Sub since we have french Infrustructure and knowledge of their Sub building techniques as per Agosta Program are available.
     
  5. su-47

    su-47 SENIOR MEMBER

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    please provide a credible source that Agosta is as advanced as scorpene. I am pretty sure scorpene is more advanced. India wouldnt have opted for it if it was in the same class as Agosta.

    India is getting scorpenes. if pak gets marlins, india will upgrade scorpenes to marlins. since india is likely to get more subs than pak, this will give india the edge. this is probably why the pak top brass is considering the U-214, a different platform.
     
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  6. EagleEyes

    EagleEyes PDF THINK TANK: CONSULTANT

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    I dont think India is getting the MESMA AIP System. Therefore, they will be inferior if not equal.
     
  7. Quwa

    Quwa Research Partner

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    waz, I was wondering...

    The French are really pushing their FREMM for export with a complete package - Aster-15, Exocet, MU-90 - and in general is an excellent general purpose ship. The known PN requirement is for 4 modern FFGs, and this may climb to a total of 6-8 ships as the years progress. Would DCN consider a discounted price if the PN were to offer up the FFG, corvette & helicopter requirements? IIRC they displayed the "whole set" during IDEAS 2006...FREMM, Gowind-120, NH-90NFH & Marlin!
     
  8. waz

    waz MODERATOR

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    Brother the Marlin has been shelved after the Pakistan Navy turned down the bid. It would have borrowed from the Barracuda but like I said before wouldn’t of offered something radically different to what India would be operating. The Scorpene has an edge over the Agosta. The last ditch effort of the French to secure the submarine contract was when they offered us the Scorpene to which the Navy declined. They are no longer in the picture for our submarine tender.

    In terms of us having existing French infrastructure that indeed is true but when you weigh against the proposed future expansion of our Naval fleet, greater operating autonomy, better capabilities, increased effectiveness against ASW assets which India is working greatly upon the U-214 was an obvious choice.

    To further reinforce my point have a look at this article that came out today




    Germany May Allow Sale to Pakistan of `Silent' HDW-Made Subs

    By Brian Parkin

    Feb. 14 (Bloomberg) -- Germany may approve the sale to Pakistan of three naval submarines made by ThyssenKrupp AG's HDW unit, ignoring the concerns of opposition lawmakers who claim the step might help stoke an arms race in the Indian Ocean.

    Chancellor Angela Merkel's arms export council needs time to decide whether to go ahead with the sale, according to a government statement on the German parliament's Web site. The decision will take account of unrest in Pakistan as the country prepares for Feb. 18 elections, as well as potential human rights abuses and economic interests, the government said.

    Navy materiel ``generally cannot be misused for internal repression or human rights infringements and the regional conflict with India doesn't have a naval component,'' the government said. Though a decision on the sale is still pending, such a step would help secure jobs at Kiel-based HDW ``for several years,'' it said.

    The opposition Green Party fears that selling the U214 submarines will help push tension between India and Pakistan to the seas. Powered by silent fuel-cells, the deep-diving U214s are difficult to detect and their acquisition may spur a new arms race by forcing a potential foe to upgrade interception technology, the Greens say.

    Merkel's government has indicated to Pakistan that it will approve the sale and will provide a Hermes export guarantee worth 1.3 billion euros ($1.9 billion) for HDW, the Greens said in a preamble to the government statement. Merkel's export council, comprising Cabinet ministers, convenes in secret.

    Submarine Exports

    The submarine exports would ``not comply with Germany's foreign and security policy interests'' and would infringe arms export rules, the lawmakers said. Pakistan's ``fragile, nuclear- armed regime is located at the center of a violent crisis-hub that stretches from Iran across Afghanistan to China and India.''

    U214s sold by HDW to foreign governments are not equipped to fire missiles, the government said. The submarine has eight torpedo tubes and is technologically ``15 years'' ahead of the three French-made Agosta-class submarines operated by the Pakistani navy, said the Greens Party.

    Germany ``fundamentally recognizes the right of other states to arm their forces with appropriate conventional means, exercising their right of self-defense,'' the statement said, adding that in Germany's view ``Pakistan's naval forces see modern submarines as a classic means to build their main deterrence against a blockade or an attack by a stronger opponent.''

    To contact the reporter on this story: Brian Parkin in Munich at bparkin@bloomberg.net

    Bloomberg.com
     
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  9. fatman17

    fatman17 PDF THINK TANK: CONSULTANT

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    Germany May Allow Sale to Pakistan of `Silent' HDW-Made Subs

    By Brian Parkin

    Feb. 14 (Bloomberg) -- Germany may approve the sale to Pakistan of three naval submarines made by ThyssenKrupp AG's HDW unit, ignoring the concerns of opposition lawmakers who claim the step might help stoke an arms race in the Indian Ocean.

    Chancellor Angela Merkel's arms export council needs time to decide whether to go ahead with the sale, according to a government statement on the German parliament's Web site. The decision will take account of unrest in Pakistan as the country prepares for Feb. 18 elections, as well as potential human rights abuses and economic interests, the government said.

    Navy materiel ``generally cannot be misused for internal repression or human rights infringements and the regional conflict with India doesn't have a naval component,'' the government said. Though a decision on the sale is still pending, such a step would help secure jobs at Kiel-based HDW ``for several years,'' it said.

    The opposition Green Party fears that selling the U214 submarines will help push tension between India and Pakistan to the seas. Powered by silent fuel-cells, the deep-diving U214s are difficult to detect and their acquisition may spur a new arms race by forcing a potential foe to upgrade interception technology, the Greens say.

    Merkel's government has indicated to Pakistan that it will approve the sale and will provide a Hermes export guarantee worth 1.3 billion euros ($1.9 billion) for HDW, the Greens said in a preamble to the government statement. Merkel's export council, comprising Cabinet ministers, convenes in secret.

    Submarine Exports

    The submarine exports would ``not comply with Germany's foreign and security policy interests'' and would infringe arms export rules, the lawmakers said. Pakistan's ``fragile, nuclear- armed regime is located at the center of a violent crisis-hub that stretches from Iran across Afghanistan to China and India.''

    U214s sold by HDW to foreign governments are not equipped to fire missiles, the government said. The submarine has eight torpedo tubes and is technologically ``15 years'' ahead of the three French-made Agosta-class submarines operated by the Pakistani navy, said the Greens Party.

    Germany ``fundamentally recognizes the right of other states to arm their forces with appropriate conventional means, exercising their right of self-defense,'' the statement said, adding that in Germany's view ``Pakistan's naval forces see modern submarines as a classic means to build their main deterrence against a blockade or an attack by a stronger opponent.''
     
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  10. waz

    waz MODERATOR

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    The French would consider it and have offered considerable deals if we were to go their way for our larger surface ships, this in part to the Chinese and German approach on their traditional "territory". Things have been Very quiet for DCN since 2005 as well so they are banking on a good outcome for our ship requirement. It couldn’t be a better time for them considering we are retiring ships and looking for a large expansion.

    The Naval brass I spoke to are quite fond of the FREMM and with expanded budget that has been given to the navy to meet their requirements by 2020 we could see something soon. I’d figure it will be split deals between the Chinese and French options. The Germans also are looking to tie in something but then I doubt the Navy would let the French down like that after the submarine setback.
     
  11. Mubashar_ali

    Mubashar_ali FULL MEMBER

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  12. IceCold

    IceCold PDF VETERAN

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    So whether it is US or Germany for that matter, why is it that every time pakistan decides to buy something out, these no good lawmakers suddenly standup and start expressing their fear about a possible arms race in S.A. What about the huge amount of military hardware india is buying, that doesnt seem to bother them at all. By the way going the french way would have been better, though it might not be on par with the U-214, still the french also offered an upgradition of the existing agusta class subs of the PN if we opted for the marlin and that too free of cost and besides we have the infrastructure already in place to handle the french technology, also france is a much more reliable supplier then any of the others US and germany. PAF opted for the F-16s because the infrastructure was in place and the new breed of the F-16s could easily be inducted without much of a hussle, i cant see why cant the navy do the same. Anyways lets wait and hope PN gets the best out of her limited sources.
     
  13. Quwa

    Quwa Research Partner

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    These no good law makers can't do much against the business lobbyists...

    Anyways, first phase of PN's modernization includes;

    3 new SSKs - U214 likely.
    4 new corvettes
    4 new frigates

    Let's see if DCN can offer an attractive joint deal with 4 Gowind 200 & 4 FREMM.
     
  14. EagleEyes

    EagleEyes PDF THINK TANK: CONSULTANT

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  15. Mustapha

    Mustapha FULL MEMBER

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    Assalamulaykum,

    I consider the U-214 to be the PN's best choice for two main reasons:

    A) It will diversify our technology in the Submarine industry.

    B) The U-214 is "15" years ahead of the Marlin.

    Thus, this is not only sufficient evidence that the U-214 should be our choice but also is an invaluable asset to the PN.

    Though, may I ask one question. I heard there was a rumor that the export version of the U-214 had a magnetic shell [or in other words making it more vunerable to being detected.]

    Can anyone shed some light on this?

    Allah Hafiz