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Fake MiGs! Missing Antonovs! Why India must keep away from Ukraine

Zarvan

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Ukraine competes with Russia to service Soviet military tech

tass_13388985.jpg

Representatives of Indian Air Force during the handover of 5 modernized AN-32RE planes for IAF on November 19, 2015 in Kiev, Ukraine. Source:BarcroftMedia/TASS

A year after the fiasco of losing five IAF aircraft sent to Ukraine for upgrades, the dysfunctional country is making a renewed pitch to re-enter the Indian defence sector. At the recently concluded Defexpo in Goa, Perto Fedoruk, chief adviser to Ukraine’s largest defence industry consortium, Ukroboronprom, offered to break the “Russian monopoly” in the maintenance and upgrade of India’s Soviet era weapons system.

Considering that the overwhelming majority of India’s defence hardware is of Soviet origin, their future refurbishment could translate into tens of billions of dollars. Ukraine’s defence industry, which has been hit hard by the ongoing civil war in the country, would no doubt like a slice of this pie.

But are the Ukrainians in a position to serve India’s growing and increasingly complex requirements? For, currently they can’t even serve the needs of tiny Croatia.


Making Russian arms in India


According to a report in Croatia’s Jutarnji List, the country’s military police is conducting a major investigation into the refurbishment of MiG-21s, which were bought and refurbished in Ukraine. Initial investigations have revealed a number of irregularities and there is suspicion that bribes were paid.

The refurbished MiG-21s were handed over to the Croatian Air Force (CAF) in July 2015 and, ever since the planes arrived, problems started to emerge. Eight months later the CAF has just three planes available for operations, while five are not operational. What seems to have happened is fraud and duplication on a brazen scale. The serial numbers on the MiGs have been changed and the parts that were changed do not match the ones listed in the paperwork, raising serious suspicion that the planes could be five years older than their accompanying documentation claims.

Worse, the refurbishment of the MiG-21s may not have been carried out at all and that this was one of the reasons why the planes kept breaking down. “We do not know if the planes that were sent to Ukraine for refurbishment are the same ones that came back,” a source told Jutarnji List.

Now you’d think the stink has got bad that it couldn’t get any worse. But it really does. A year before the refurbishment contract was signed, Ukraine offered to sell eight MiG-21s to Croatia. When the Croatians conducted a few enquiries, they found out that the MiGs were apparently owned by Yemen and not Ukraine.

Jutarnji List says even the five planes that Croatia did end up buying from Ukraine were put together using parts from all over the world - the hull is Bulgarian, wings from Algeria, and only the gas tanks have Russian insignias on them.

And there could be more scandals to come. Says Danni Matijaca of Total Croatia News: “We believe many other shady dealings will be uncovered as time passes.”

How can you lose an aircraft?
Well, you can if you are a Ukrainian company. A major crisis involving Ukraine erupted in April 2015 when the Ukrainians – believe it or not – lost five AN-32 transport planes belonging to the Indian Air Force. These aircraft were part of a batch of 40 AN-32s that had been sent to Ukraine’s state-owned Ukrspetsexport for upgrades and refurbishment.

The remaining 64 An-32s were to be upgraded at the IAF’s Kanpur air force base, under a technology transfer from Ukraine, but the planned upgrade was halted as Ukrainian engineers walked out of the job and supplies of spare parts stopped. While you are entitled to laugh, the IAF brass didn’t find it so funny. They raised an almighty fuss and told the Ukrainians: “Find our planes.” The An-32s were ultimately found and flown back to India.

A diplomat from the Ukraine embassy told the Indian side that the IAF must resolve this issue with Ukrspetsexport, and that the Ukrainian government “cannot help”. Financial portal Zero Hedge comments: “We wonder if that rather unhelpful attitude has anything to do with India not imposing sanctions on Russia.”


“Open Partner” Russia has advantage in Indian defence arena


Tanks for Pakistan
In 1996, Ukraine announced the sale of more than 300 T-80 tanks to Pakistan. It also decided to manufacture medium guns for the Pakistani tanks. In June 2002, the two countries signed a $100 million contract for producing transmission equipment for Pakistan’s Al-Khalid tank.

Ukraine is participating in the implementation of over a dozen projects in the military-industrial sphere in Pakistan. Contracts have been signed for establishing two repair test bases for T-80s in Pakistan. Kiev may also avail of an opportunity to export new air defence units which were recently tested in Pakistan.

More recently, Ukraine attempted to play spoil sport in a major India-Russia defence deal. New Delhi and Moscow are circling around a $3 billion contract for new Talwar class frigates. In line with the Narendra Modi government’s ‘Make in India’ push, the production of these frigates will involve an Indian partner, most likely Pipavav Shipyard owned by the Reliance Anil Dhirubhai Ambani Group.

The only potentially problematic issue with the Talwar deal is the ship’s engine, which is built in Ukraine. Initially, the Ukrainians refused to work with Russia, but subsequently are said to have agreed to supply the engines if they are meant for use by the Indian Navy.

Ukrainian involvement could be a tricky affair. The engines will need to be serviced at some point in time and if Ukraine is flat broke or simply decides to play spoiler – at American instigation, in order to make Russia look unreliable – the Indian Navy could be staring down the abyss.

According to Ukroboronprom’s Fedoruk, “For nearly a decade, Russia has forcefully blocked our entry. We have offered multiple solutions to give new life to Soviet-era weaponry, as we are the original equipment manufacturer.”

Since a number of defence systems that India acquired from the former Soviet Union were entirely or partly built in Ukraine, there is a good chance that the Ukrainians will make a bid for upgrading such equipment.

But here’s the rub. It seems Ukraine’s primary preoccupation is to spite Russia at all costs, to play spoiler. Winning business or making friends in India is secondary, as the An-32 incident bears out. Considering that everything Ukraine touches turns to rust, it would be a brave commander or bureaucrat who sticks his neck out and allows Ukraine to enter the Indian defence sector.

http://in.rbth.com/blogs/stranger_t...-why-india-must-keep-away-from-ukraine_584145
 
The Chinese have good cooperation with the Ukrainians in defence. Even ISRO has good, actual substantial partnership with them, so I dont see why Indian-Ukrianians shouldn't expand the defence business.
 
Ukraine has
1. Gas turbines
2. Tank Engines
3. KMDB
4. An178
5. 61 Kommunards and adjoining shipyards which build the majority of Soviet navy.

India looks forward to take advantage of these with Cooperation with Ukraine.
 
The Chinese have good cooperation with the Ukrainians in defence. Even ISRO has good, actual substantial partnership with them, so I dont see why Indian-Ukrianians shouldn't expand the defence business.
We gained ship Gas turbin, transport aircraft tech, training aircraft engine, Su33 prototype TK10, Vayag carriers , missile, tanker aircraft,European buffalo hovercraft from Ukraine. I think Ukraine is our good buddy. Without Ukraine's help, we won't make it that fast in some area of the weapon development. My highest salute to Ukraine friend.

The Chinese have good cooperation with the Ukrainians in defence. Even ISRO has good, actual substantial partnership with them, so I dont see why Indian-Ukrianians shouldn't expand the defence business.
You shall had go for it long time ago, Russians only bleed you white.
 
Ukraine competes with Russia to service Soviet military tech

tass_13388985.jpg

Representatives of Indian Air Force during the handover of 5 modernized AN-32RE planes for IAF on November 19, 2015 in Kiev, Ukraine. Source:BarcroftMedia/TASS

A year after the fiasco of losing five IAF aircraft sent to Ukraine for upgrades, the dysfunctional country is making a renewed pitch to re-enter the Indian defence sector. At the recently concluded Defexpo in Goa, Perto Fedoruk, chief adviser to Ukraine’s largest defence industry consortium, Ukroboronprom, offered to break the “Russian monopoly” in the maintenance and upgrade of India’s Soviet era weapons system.

Considering that the overwhelming majority of India’s defence hardware is of Soviet origin, their future refurbishment could translate into tens of billions of dollars. Ukraine’s defence industry, which has been hit hard by the ongoing civil war in the country, would no doubt like a slice of this pie.

But are the Ukrainians in a position to serve India’s growing and increasingly complex requirements? For, currently they can’t even serve the needs of tiny Croatia.


Making Russian arms in India


According to a report in Croatia’s Jutarnji List, the country’s military police is conducting a major investigation into the refurbishment of MiG-21s, which were bought and refurbished in Ukraine. Initial investigations have revealed a number of irregularities and there is suspicion that bribes were paid.

The refurbished MiG-21s were handed over to the Croatian Air Force (CAF) in July 2015 and, ever since the planes arrived, problems started to emerge. Eight months later the CAF has just three planes available for operations, while five are not operational. What seems to have happened is fraud and duplication on a brazen scale. The serial numbers on the MiGs have been changed and the parts that were changed do not match the ones listed in the paperwork, raising serious suspicion that the planes could be five years older than their accompanying documentation claims.

Worse, the refurbishment of the MiG-21s may not have been carried out at all and that this was one of the reasons why the planes kept breaking down. “We do not know if the planes that were sent to Ukraine for refurbishment are the same ones that came back,” a source told Jutarnji List.

Now you’d think the stink has got bad that it couldn’t get any worse. But it really does. A year before the refurbishment contract was signed, Ukraine offered to sell eight MiG-21s to Croatia. When the Croatians conducted a few enquiries, they found out that the MiGs were apparently owned by Yemen and not Ukraine.

Jutarnji List says even the five planes that Croatia did end up buying from Ukraine were put together using parts from all over the world - the hull is Bulgarian, wings from Algeria, and only the gas tanks have Russian insignias on them.

And there could be more scandals to come. Says Danni Matijaca of Total Croatia News: “We believe many other shady dealings will be uncovered as time passes.”

How can you lose an aircraft?
Well, you can if you are a Ukrainian company. A major crisis involving Ukraine erupted in April 2015 when the Ukrainians – believe it or not – lost five AN-32 transport planes belonging to the Indian Air Force. These aircraft were part of a batch of 40 AN-32s that had been sent to Ukraine’s state-owned Ukrspetsexport for upgrades and refurbishment.

The remaining 64 An-32s were to be upgraded at the IAF’s Kanpur air force base, under a technology transfer from Ukraine, but the planned upgrade was halted as Ukrainian engineers walked out of the job and supplies of spare parts stopped. While you are entitled to laugh, the IAF brass didn’t find it so funny. They raised an almighty fuss and told the Ukrainians: “Find our planes.” The An-32s were ultimately found and flown back to India.

A diplomat from the Ukraine embassy told the Indian side that the IAF must resolve this issue with Ukrspetsexport, and that the Ukrainian government “cannot help”. Financial portal Zero Hedge comments: “We wonder if that rather unhelpful attitude has anything to do with India not imposing sanctions on Russia.”


“Open Partner” Russia has advantage in Indian defence arena


Tanks for Pakistan
In 1996, Ukraine announced the sale of more than 300 T-80 tanks to Pakistan. It also decided to manufacture medium guns for the Pakistani tanks. In June 2002, the two countries signed a $100 million contract for producing transmission equipment for Pakistan’s Al-Khalid tank.

Ukraine is participating in the implementation of over a dozen projects in the military-industrial sphere in Pakistan. Contracts have been signed for establishing two repair test bases for T-80s in Pakistan. Kiev may also avail of an opportunity to export new air defence units which were recently tested in Pakistan.

More recently, Ukraine attempted to play spoil sport in a major India-Russia defence deal. New Delhi and Moscow are circling around a $3 billion contract for new Talwar class frigates. In line with the Narendra Modi government’s ‘Make in India’ push, the production of these frigates will involve an Indian partner, most likely Pipavav Shipyard owned by the Reliance Anil Dhirubhai Ambani Group.

The only potentially problematic issue with the Talwar deal is the ship’s engine, which is built in Ukraine. Initially, the Ukrainians refused to work with Russia, but subsequently are said to have agreed to supply the engines if they are meant for use by the Indian Navy.

Ukrainian involvement could be a tricky affair. The engines will need to be serviced at some point in time and if Ukraine is flat broke or simply decides to play spoiler – at American instigation, in order to make Russia look unreliable – the Indian Navy could be staring down the abyss.

According to Ukroboronprom’s Fedoruk, “For nearly a decade, Russia has forcefully blocked our entry. We have offered multiple solutions to give new life to Soviet-era weaponry, as we are the original equipment manufacturer.”

Since a number of defence systems that India acquired from the former Soviet Union were entirely or partly built in Ukraine, there is a good chance that the Ukrainians will make a bid for upgrading such equipment.

But here’s the rub. It seems Ukraine’s primary preoccupation is to spite Russia at all costs, to play spoiler. Winning business or making friends in India is secondary, as the An-32 incident bears out. Considering that everything Ukraine touches turns to rust, it would be a brave commander or bureaucrat who sticks his neck out and allows Ukraine to enter the Indian defence sector.

http://in.rbth.com/blogs/stranger_t...-why-india-must-keep-away-from-ukraine_584145

Ukraine had a civil war. Who is going to keep track of five foreign aircraft in the middle of the civil war ?
If the Ukranians have something useful to offer at a right price India should go for it.
 
The much anticipated ISRO's semi cryogenic engine is being devoloped with Ukrainian help
 
Ukraine has
1. Gas turbines
2. Tank Engines
3. KMDB
4. An178
5. 61 Kommunards and adjoining shipyards which build the majority of Soviet navy.

India looks forward to take advantage of these with Cooperation with Ukraine.

I would say stay away from the Ukrainians as much as possible. They have routinely bee unreliable, un-responsive and their tech crew is a nightmare to work with compared to russians. Ukraine has routinely duped IAF in spares and consumables for Mig21 where they over promised and under delivered.
 
I would say stay away from the Ukrainians as much as possible. They have routinely bee unreliable, un-responsive and their tech crew is a nightmare to work with compared to russians. Ukraine has routinely duped IAF in spares and consumables for Mig21 where they over promised and under delivered.

I would say instead of green field projects under MII, MoD should emphasis on bringing in private sector to provide spares and supports. Once they show their competency and efficiency they can be allowed to go for development projects. This way not only do we achieve increased autonomy by delinking from OEM, assets on call will significantly increase too. No use having a gold plated gun we can't fire.
 
Will remain silent .I told you regarding new air defence system.
Sir I have a counter question that is does Ukraine make any Air Defence systems ? I am trying to some research and I can't find any
 
The Chinese have good cooperation with the Ukrainians in defence. Even ISRO has good, actual substantial partnership with them, so I dont see why Indian-Ukrianians shouldn't expand the defence business.
Not necessary, these Ukrainian are very difficult to deal with. They still owe China USD 7billion and only after heavily starving of fund, they release the full know how of QC-280 gas turbine technology which is the most valuable technology obtain from Ukraine for China.

Our L-15 trainer jet is heavily delay, all those to Ukraine lousy business practice.

We gained ship Gas turbin, transport aircraft tech, training aircraft engine, Su33 prototype TK10, Vayag carriers , missile, tanker aircraft,European buffalo hovercraft from Ukraine. I think Ukraine is our good buddy. Without Ukraine's help, we won't make it that fast in some area of the weapon development. My highest salute to Ukraine friend.


You shall had go for it long time ago, Russians only bleed you white.
That is a over credit statement for Ukraine. Most of time, the Ukraine are very unwilling to share technology. Remember the VT-4 MBT China deal for Peru? Ukrainian refused to release the export deal of engine for China VT-4 and causes the collapse of the deal. The only thing worthy to obtain from Ukraine is the QC-280 gas turbine for Type 52D destroyer. But it was only after some difficult behind scene bargaining that forces Ukraine to give China the technology.

Many times, Ukraine contributed very little to China military advancement. They sold orbitant price to China for a non workable T-33 prototype. Overcharging many equipment sale to China. They behave same like the Russian when comes to honoring contract deal signed which they deemed can be changed anytime they want.
 

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