Pakistan suffers $100bn losses in ‘war on terror’

Discussion in 'Pakistan's War Against TTP' started by UmarJustice, Jun 4, 2013.

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  1. Marwat Khan Lodhi
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    Marwat Khan Lodhi BANNED

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    TTP is nowadays based in north waziristan and Pak army wont do military operation there.........

    TTP wont be able to stand the full military and paramilitary force which is more than million , while TTP are around 8-12 thousands including uzbeks.................but..............they would simply retreat to Afghanistan and would wait...........or continue their surprise ambushes from afghanistan side, killing on average three or four pakistani soldiers daily........After some time Fauji might in FATA would subside and taliban would return back to the area....

    It happened in south waziristan operation , Pakistan army announced it mother of all battles and assembled around 60 thousands troops.....when they entered the agency, TTP leadership and most of its fighters had already fled to afghanistan and other agencies....only two thousands taliban were left to fight, even those retreated after giving some tough resistance........now Pakistan army has established more than 800 military post in nearly empty mehsud territory ....taliban now attacks them and even have regained some territory from pak army
  2. FaujHistorian
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    FaujHistorian PDF THINK TANK: ANALYST

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    Guys (especially our dear dear dear Indian posters and "cousins form the other side of the border"),

    let's break it down a bit at least in some kind of rough figures (and who can question the prowess of Indians when it comes mathematics and their gift of gab about Pakistan :))

    So the number being thrown around is $100 billion Oh mai baap. Such a large number.

    But is it really?

    100 billions in 12 years means 8 billions per year.

    Pakistan's budget of 30+ billion a year means that 8 billions is roughly 25%.


    During the same time Americans have helped us with roughly $2 to 3 billions a year.

    so the real gap is $5 to 6 billion a year.

    This is roughly the amount we have been getting from World bank and IMF and other lending institutions every year plus some favorable trade quotas from EU and USA


    Thus as far as the budget is concerned, either we the Paks come out even, or perhaps in a hole for 1 to 2 billion dollars a year.

    This amount for a country of roughly 200 million is chump change really.

    and

    From American POV, 1 to 2 billion is really pennies on the side walk.


    So my dear Pakistani posters,


    We should not belittle ourselves by crying for $1 to $2 billion a year and that with USA.

    What we really lost since 1995 Islamist uprising in FATA/PATA is much much bigger and much mroe costlier in terms of our loss of 10s of 1000s of fellow Pakistani civilians and precious jawans and officers.


    Like Malika Tarunnum Noor jahan said

    --- Eh Puttar hattan tay naeen wikday (my jawans and officers are too precious that we can just go buy them from a shop).

    Brings tears to my eyes every time I listen to that song even though my punjabi is not really great.

    ---- youtube.com/watch?v=MpjxVSF8NQ0

    So I urge you all Pakistanis.

    Do not trivialize and cheapen ourselves by small ($1-2 billion a year) money talk (even though it is important) while totally ignoring our true losses against the Talib@stards and Islamists.


    peace
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  3. Marwat Khan Lodhi
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    Marwat Khan Lodhi BANNED

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    These tribals have fought continuously with British for nearly hundred years.......pakistan army should have studied their history before sending forces there in 2004........pak army daldal may pans chuka he
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  4. FaujHistorian
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    FaujHistorian PDF THINK TANK: ANALYST

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    This is the biggest be-ghairty statement by someone named "Pakistan-One".

    I forgive you. Perhaps you were not of sound mind when you wrote this.

    FYI. Tribals you talk about from British era are long gone (and so are the British). those tribals were brave and principled. They laid their arms down as soon as Pakistan came into being and British left.

    Obviously you don't know the history and thus utterly confused like the 12 year old (intellectually) Islamist called Zarvan.


    In reality of 2013, now what you have are the sons and especially daughters (of those brave tribals) who are being raped and killed by Uzbeks, Arabs, and their Islamist lackies on daily basis.


    And these tribals' sons and daughters are hapless, and totally powerless against the utter brutality.


    Tell me if those tribals who bravely fought British would ever kill or rape a woman, or worse 10 years old girls

    Tell me?

    I tell you absolutely not. Those were brave but principled warriors that everyone should look up to.

    But now,



    Uzbeks/Arabs come and kill Tribal elders, and hapless tribals cry for help from Pak army
    Uzbeks/Arabs come and kill Tribal women, and hapless tribals cry for help from Pak army
    Uzbeks/Arabs come and kill Tribal girls like malala , and hapless tribals cry for help from Pak army

    Uzbeks/Arabs come and bomb Tribal schools and teachers, and hapless tribals cry for help,


    and Pak army goes in to rebuild those bombed out schools.

    Why?

    So the tribals' sons and daughters can get education and improve their lot and their tribe's lot.




    And here you are, talking about things that you have no fing idea.

    Sorry to say

    so sorry to say that you are repeating the propaganda of Uzbeks, Arabs and Islamist Talib@stards who are the biggest plague against the innocent tribals.


    So sorry to see people like you posting garbage on PDF that even Indians could not do.
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  5. Fireurimagination
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    Fireurimagination FULL MEMBER

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    The thing is the war can't go on indefinitely, Pakistan, US and Afghanistan will have to find a way out of the mess they have created for themselves
  6. Marwat Khan Lodhi
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    No personal attacks plz. Tribals are same, they follow same islam and pakhtunwali they used to follow in British times.
    There are two institutions in Pakhtun society,
    1- Mosque led by Mullah
    2- Hujra led by Malak
    Pakistan in order to suppress pashtuniyat, encouraged exclusively the mullah while underming malak during soviet-afghan war and aftermaths. This disturbed the balance in pakhtun society, thats why taliban and religous forces are dominant in tribal areas, while khan and malaks have secondary roles.

    Please no personal attacks.

    Taliban and their allies might kidnap for ransom or do suicide bombings or behead soldiers but they dont rape. FATA is not India.


    Not exactly. Every man in FATA is armed. Except few tribes e.g mullagories, most of them are not cooperating with foriegn boots aka pak army , they are just indifferent. They are sick of military operations, displacements, curfews, air force bombardments, drones etc and do not have any love for pak army even if are not sympathetic to taliban.


    Kindly refrain from false propaganda.



    What are you talking about? those tribals were cursed and bad-mouthed by "attock key uss paar" muslims whose sons in british indian army were getting slaughtered by 'savage' tribals. Have you heard about mad mullahs of tribal areas who led resistances against british and their desi sepoys (predessors of pak army)?




    Are you drunk? Tribals never cried for pak army's help. Even swatis deny that they welcomed pak army operation after a video leak....

    Crying for help from pak army , which shoots you in the head for merely carrying your zewar? Help from army which has destroyed any kind of existing infrastructure in FATA through military operations and air force strikes?....help from army whose ISI responsible for disappearances of thousands of tribals?


    Pak army is not rebuilding any thing in FATA, war is going on there.
    You should stop calling yourself historian and quality of your posts are too much low for a think tank.

    @Zarvan, @Hyperion
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  7. GR!FF!N
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    GR!FF!N SENIOR MEMBER

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    why us???humne tumhara kya bigara hai??and who are USA's non muslim allies around your country???
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  8. Pfpilot
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    Pfpilot PDF THINK TANK: CONSULTANT

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    To look at war as an economic win or loss proposition while observing only one side is sheer folly. As much as we like to think otherwise and incompetent leaders like to prove otherwise, war is an investment. An investment that pays dividends not directly but through indirect avenues. Pakistanis would do well to view the War on Terror through the same perspective. Losses in lives and money are extreme, but theoretically they are necessary sacrifices in order to create a better Pakistan. If we let the extremist threat survive in order to play it safe, the losses we would suffer over the long term would burry the sacrifices of today.

    If the Pakistani economy is to ever rise out of the doldrums in a definite manner, it must convince foreign governments and corporations that it is willing to do all it can to create a safe and stable environment. Now as it is happens, our incompetent leadership means little but lip service, but the idea remains the same. The fight on Pakistan's western border is an advertisement of the viability of Pakistan's future. The billions that will be earned to recoup the losses of war would be the result of global investment that would follow the successful end of such a war.

    On a similar level. The extremist threat, were it allowed to survive, has the potential of radically changing Pakistan into a nation of extremists. The uneducated and poor are easy prey for emotional messages; and the one resource we have a lot are the millions upon millions of neglected Pakistanis with little optimism and education. Categorically defeating the extremist threat will provide the government the chance to educate the masses and prevent them from falling prey to misguided ideals. A culturally rich society that frowns upon the idiocy that allows someone to blow up children in the name of the very God they claim to be companionate will allow Pakistan to flourish and gain acceptance in the wider world. It will allow Pakistanis of different creeds to live peacefully along side each other and not worry that every time they step outside of their house, they may get shot, kidnapped, blown up, or robbed.

    The other side of the coin is the possibility that Pakistan continues to fight this war in order to appease America and has no plans to systematically eradicate extremism. While incredibly depressing, it only further proves the economic value of war. A Pakistan that finds itself on the wrong side of the American cause, would be made an example of in the same way Iraq was. To the Pakistani establishment, a $100 billion dollars maybe irrelevant to the alternative of losing the nation (and their personal cash cow) to the might of the US military.

    Either way, the War on Terror cannot be judged on the funds it has absorbed. But by the alternatives available in its place. Economic viability, culturally vibrancy, or simply survival are all worth more than what Pakistan is spending today. The question is which of these ideals is most important. Because if this conflict is never meant to be won and only continuing so that politicians can continue to rob Pakistan dry, then the masses lose either way.
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  9. FaujHistorian
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    hhahahahah.


    You now talk like a communist kabuli.

    Uzbeks and Arabs and their lackey locals have killed countless pashtun women,

    And you call them British era tribals?



    hahahahah

    British ear tribals would even let go an enemy if he was with his family woman kids.

    These days Arabs and Uzbeks are f^^ing the sons and tribals of those tribals and these poor soles cannot do squat.

    How many tribal elder's murders have been avenged by killing TTP leaders?

    Answer?

    Zilch, nada, shunni, zero

    How many times an angry son of a tribal elder murdered by Arabs/Uzbeks, have gone on to kill a major Arab/Uzbek fighter


    Answer?

    Zilch, nada, shunni, zero

    Only Americans (to large degree) and Pakistani army to lesser degree is avenging deaths of tribal elders, and Pashtun women.



    no wonder you need Islamist Talib@stard "help" from the likes of Z-man-ul-Shaitan.


    sadly


    While our innocent Pashtun women are being killed willy nilly

    you come here and support Talib@stards and Z-man-ul-shaitan.

    Shabash

    This is what we call true ghairat mandi
  10. Argus Panoptes
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    Argus Panoptes BANNED

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    As long as those in power get to milk their personal cows, Pakistan will remain exactly the same. The whole world and their uncle knows this. Who are we kidding but ourselves when we continue to say platitudes like "A culturally rich society that frowns upon the idiocy that allows someone to blow up children in the name of the very God they claim to be companionate will allow Pakistan to flourish and gain acceptance in the wider world. It will allow Pakistanis of different creeds to live peacefully along side each other and not worry that every time they step outside of their house, they may get shot, kidnapped, blown up, or robbed" ?
    @Pfpilot Sir I think you missed this great post by @Oscar in a closed thread which I copy below:

    Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/social...-made-separate-province-15.html#ixzz2VGrURuS3
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  11. Bobby
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    :omghaha:................:omghaha:
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  12. Pfpilot
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    You're right as usual. I understand the futility in talking of a utopia like Pakistan. Though these distant ideals are present and taken for granted in many parts of the world. So not so much distant as they are ignored ideals. But living in a nation as free and prosperous and accepting of different cultures as Canada has only made me more desperate to present, at every opportunity, what is possible if the people of Pakistan at least attempt to look in the right direction. Prosperity and freedom and liberty are self fulfilling prophecies once they have begin to take root. Because greed and contentment are the traits every human being spends his life chasing after. It is why nations that were as poor and backward as China and India find themselves at the doorstep of the developed world. Oscar has long been one of my favorite members on this forum so I won't disagree with him; in fact, I feel he is completely right. But in the same irrational manner that most Pakistanis can turn their back on the promise land of peace and prosperity, I cannot stop myself from claiming that it is all possible, were people willing to make the effort. I am whole heartedly willing to be labelled a raving lunatics if it means atleast one man, for one second, considers there is more to life than death, destruction and corruption.
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  13. Argus Panoptes
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    But Sir, that is exactly the problem.

    When you make all these sincere attempts to make us see the right direction, all we see is you living large in Canada, enjoying freedom and prosperity, and then your message gets lost in our jealousy. In time you will learn the wisdom of keeping quiet too, biding your time when your advice will be heeded if and when we stumble upon the right direction ourselves.

    What was the old saying about leading a horse to water?
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  14. SUPARCO
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    Mubarrak to Pakistani Generals, Brigadiers, Colonels, Majors, Captains, Lieutenants and generally to all Pakistani Army soldiers with whatever rank they hold.

    Shabaash, no doubt you've made Pakistan very proud. I hope you give yourself more medals for making Pakistan a frontline jackass on War on Islam, I mean War on Deshatgardi.

    Lartay raho, martay raho, anpay aap ko bas khush kartay raho.
  15. muse
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    How do we explain the phenomenon we see on this forum, where it seems no consensus can be developed to confront the Islamist enemy and where the craziest and dangerous positions are taken by people who we would otherwise judge as sane ?

    Fear and Trembling?? Yes, yes, the piece below is required reading for our mods (you know who you are) - :


    Comedy of the grotesque
    By Ejaz Haider
    Published: June 4, 2013


    The writer is Editor, National Security Affairs at Capital TV and a visiting fellow at SDPI

    It is amazing how fear can induce individuals, groups, even entire societies to lie, dissemble, surrender their will, and hide from the ugly reality. Fear generates pusillanimity, grotesqueries, chicaneries and charlatans.

    Take the example of the Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan (TTP) and us. Since a drone strike took out Waliur Rehman, the TTP second-in-command but effectively the terrorist conglomerate’s operational chief, it seems we have all gone into mourning. Maulana Samiul Haq wants us to apologise to the TTP. Maulana Fazlur Rehman is grieved that now the TTP has pulled out of talks and the state of Pakistan must consider this a golden opportunity lost. Others think the United States has, as is its wont, sabotaged another opportunity of making peace with the terrorists.

    In plain English, this is bunkum. Would someone indicate to me the womb from whence this certainty of talks offer by the TTP is birthed? Or such talks, if talk we did, would lead to the end of gratuitous bloodletting by the TTP? Or better still, as the thinking in some quarters goes, that with Pakistan streamlining its foreign policy in line with the TTP’s wishes — command is a more appropriate word — and isolating itself, the TTP would surrender its weapons and its motive and somehow dissipate?

    None of this will, or can, happen. The TTP has seen how fear works to its advantage. To think it will surrender the very tool that helps it challenge the state and effectively do so, is to raise stupidity to the level of fine art. But let’s assume, given all the mourning, that there was some substance to this mythical talks offer by the TTP. Did the TTP stop the bloodletting as a gesture of good faith? No, it didn’t. So, why should the state relinquish its monopoly of violence, even if it were to enter into a dialogue with the TTP and before that dialogue promised anything?

    I began by mentioning fear. It is the most important factor in this war of wills. And fear does not just haunt the commoners, the decent folks going about their daily chores. The more I meet with and talk to religio-political leaders, the more I am struck by how scared they are of the TTP and the fact that they have become irrelevant. It is a matter of deep irony that those challenging the state and society on the basis of an exclusionary ideology were created by these religious charlatans. And in a further twist of irony, knowing that they do not control the narrative any more, they have taken to confusing the people and painting the TTP as a victim rather than the perpetrator of violence.

    This has policy implications. Many analysts talk about the necessity of a religious counter-narrative grounded in exegetical work. The argument is that the only way to countervail the religious extremism of the TTP is to show it up for what it is: false. And that can be done only by religious scholars. In theory, this might sound good. But given the situation on the ground, this is unlikely to work. Religious scholars are scared as are the religio-political pretenders. They know that the space has been captured by the TTP and if they were to counter the conglomerate, they will either have to leave Pakistan or get killed. Maulana Fazlur Rehman should know; he had a close brush with them. Others weren’t so lucky.

    The consequence of this is terrible. To avoid falling on the wrong side of the TTP, the clerics use multiple arguments with nary a thought to being non sequitur. Here are some examples:

    (Defense.pk forum members and especially MODS: how many times have you run across the arguments below)

    The TTP’s actions are owed to drone attacks. Tell them that this violence is pre-drone and they will shift gears and say this is because Pakistan entered America’s war. Counter them by saying that extremist terrorism precedes America’s entry into Afghanistan and they tell you that sectarian violence is a different phenomenon. Insist that sectarian terrorist outfits form the backbone of the TTP, they tell you that these differences are centuries old. Try telling them that regardless of how old these differences are, they are generating violence in Pakistani society and they will tell you that these killings are owed to external forces. Ask them what these external forces are and they will name the known foreign intelligence agencies. Turn this on them and argue that if this is right then how can the state talk to the TTP and they give you more poppycock. Ask why the TTP is generating violence in Pakistan instead of fighting in Afghanistan and we come full circle: because Pakistan entered into America’s war.

    This is just a bird’s-eye view of the lies they feed. The list of their logical fallacies is long and distinguished only by the fact that many among us refuse to look at this self-serving narrative with eyes wide shut.

    Talk to them off the record and they are more truthful, at least some. The business they have been running now threatens their own lives and they know it. Such is their vulnerability that the TTP could get their own seminarians to lynch them.

    Corollary: if Mian Nawaz Sharif thinks that he can co-opt religio-political leaders to get the TTP to stop its murderous spree, he is not only barking up the wrong tree, he is in the wrong jungle altogether.

    His only option is to sit down, roll up his sleeves and do some hard thinking and work. That would demand understanding clearly the nature of the threat and an assessment of what tools the state has to counter it. Make a list of the state’s strengths and weaknesses as also the adversary’s. Establish a clear friend-enemy distinction and present the state’s narrative without equivocation. Play on the state’s strengths and address the weaknesses. Challenge the lies and half-truths.

    The situation cannot be turned around in a day. But it is important to first set the direction. And that requires his version of “We shall fight on the beaches” speech. Does the third-time prime minister, as he takes oath today, have it in him to appreciate the gravity of the situation and rise to meet the challenge, cutting through the deliberately created fog of lies?
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