PAF's possible answer to MRCA

Discussion in 'Pakistan Air Force' started by sohailbutt, May 3, 2008.

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  1. sohailbutt
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    sohailbutt FULL MEMBER

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    I took out some time from my studies to write my thoughts as to wut will PAF's possible answer be to MRCA, i have analysed all the options one by one, availabe to PAF from my point of view, so here it goes:taz:

    1. IAF goes for F-18 SuperHornet

    The aircraft will give IAF a big boost in stirke roles as they will now get one the best proven fighter of the US Airforce (just look at the different types of weapons it can carry), but the biggest drawback is that they would have to set up all new infrastructure to handle this aircraft, which will surely take lots of time, one of the biggest problem will also come in managing all the different Russian n American aircraft's at once. The aircraft is pricey no doubt about that but if this plane is bought the tender will easily jump from $10 Billion to $15 Billion because of the weapons that will be bought separately and training n everythin else needed with the aircrafts, US is solely sellin this plane cause it wants to counter China's growing influence in the region n the world by using India as a pawn on the chessboard, the biggest set back for India will be when US in the future bans all exports of spares for these planes to India, when it is done with China, as was the case with our F-16's when cold war ended, then after export bans for spares India will have to pay a big price in the black markets, initially the order will be for 126 aircraft but, I'm pretty sure they will exercise the remaining option for 74 aircraft which would bring the total number of F-18's to 200 in IAF.

    Possible PAF's response to this scenario.

    Well, PAF know's that this aircraft is very capable, wut I think PAF should do in this scenario is, it should adopt different alternatives to counter this threat which includes:

    MEADS.jpg

    1. Buy real kick *** MEADS battery with Patriot's in them, which will keep the F-18's, Su-30, n all the rest of our rivals aircraft out of PAK airspace, they will not even think to come near cause Patriot is a proven hit-to-kill SAM n it never misses it's target no matter wut, n they will know this. In my view PAF shuld buy atleast 15 of these batteries which would be used with our radars and erieye's. SAM systems r cheaper than fighter aircraft's so they can be deployed in PAK in large numbers. This will also give us defence against the russian made brahmos cruise missile n their Ballistic missiles.

    F-15E Strike Eagle.jpg

    Rafale.jpg

    EuroFighter.jpg

    2. Buy some real kick *** fighter like the next generation F-15E Strike Eagle, "The F-15 family of aircraft has a perfect air-combat record of more than 100 victories and zero defeats" (greater than F-16's) (3 squadrons of these aircraft would be enough to counter the F-18 threat), or if PAF doesnot want to go American way they should go for Rafale, a very capable n proven fighter, the sale of the aircraft cannot be blocked like the F-15's by the American congress(again 3 squadrons) or the Eurofighter which is an air superiority fighter, i know its expensive but it will keep IAF away as they will know that PAF operates it n it is not the machine, it is the man behind the machine which is the real face of victory but none the less both play an important role in the success of the mission, n Alhamdulillah our Pilots r the best in the world. I would suggest PAF not to buy anymore F-16's cause we have had enough with F-16's buy somethin else now, whose technology could be used to further improve our JF-17 n possibly J-10's. Guys, one more thing, if we go for F-15E stike eagles they will have "A Service life that will allow it to be viable until at least 2035", n we know how capable this fighter is, it will be a big punch in Su-30's face n even F-18's. Wut ever aircraft PAF puchases to counter the MRCA threat in the future it should not be a sinlge engine aircraft.

    Boeing: Integrated Defense Systems - F-15E Strike Eagle

    In my view PAF should go for a mix of the above 2 options buy MEADS SAM batteries n buy 3 squadrons of one of the 3 twin engine planes mentioned above. This in view would be the best reply to F-18 SuperHornets as the possible MRCA winner. We donot have anyproblem with finances, we can ask Saudi's to fund our purchase or anyone else who is a trusted and time tested friend of our Proud Nation.

    Anyway, guys my time is over now I've to start revisin for my exams which r after 2 weeks from now, i would conduct my analysis on F-16's n post it tommorow in this thread but guys who ever reads this please reply to it wut u think, especially the senior members (everyone is welcome to do so), thank u all for reading:yahoo:

    Analysis of other aircraft will follow day by day from now on until the very last aircraft:flame:
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  2. HAIDER
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    HAIDER SENIOR MEMBER

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    Very rare chance of any US aircraft induction in Indian forces. It only narrow down to European or Russian competitors. Too much variety of Planes causes maintenance headache for any force.
    F16 is rival fighter, next door country has it. Super Hornet is comparable to SU30 MKI. Only fighter left is Rafale or Euro. Critics now comparing Rafale or JAS to F22 in performance. But real test will be battle field.
    Indian has only operated lately Russian and European avionics. Mirage, Sukoi or Mig at the most.
  3. BATMAN
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    BATMAN ELITE MEMBER

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    I think in Indian MRCA race F-16 have 51% chances and F-18 49%.
    I think PAF's admiration of F-16 has earned it a lot of respect and perhaps made it the most sold aircraft from US.
    The element of enemy already having it can be argued by them by declaring it as Indian version, different from block 50 or MLU F-16 of PAF.
    Eurofighter have definite 0% chances, mainly because of its cost.
    Rafale has been already declined, grippen have the potential because PAF has also attested it during evaluation, but failed to induct in past due to financial constraints.

    In my opinion so far PAF is on 90% right track. If they thought they need a western fighter in the face of Indian MRCA than F-16block50 is the winner choice.
    I think J-10B (advance J-10) will eventually and soon reach to the level of Rafale, Grippen, and Typhoon. Multi role but in PAF, I suppose will be more suitable for strike roles.

    Thunder will also eventually and soon develop to block 50 levels and further more.

    Infect, I have analyzed the pros and cons of both buying foreign and developing local and I have come to the conclusion that more you buy foreign more you help them to develop and more you keep yourself away from being developing and more you spend on local more you help yourself to develop and more you retard the development of foreign product, which may eventually be used against you.

    If Indians buy any American or European the cost of 126 may truly reach around 15b$+.
    If we assume India places the order of MRCA in 2009 than it will take at least 3 years (2012) for them to get some deliveries and training. By that time I expect Dragon to develop at comparable level.
    Hence Pakistan should continue on its track and keep developing local products in venture with Turkey and China.
    Anyway, we have the minimum detterence in worst case, senario.
    Our ROSE mirrages are equally advance as any of present Indian fighter.
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  4. HAIDER
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    HAIDER SENIOR MEMBER

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    For somehow PAF show extremely well performance in light combat aircraft from Sabre to F16. Master in operation light US combat aircraft. And rival India has some how inclination toward heavy weight aircraft like Mig29, SU30, Mig 25 etc. But these plane are unproven yet. Feel like PAF doctrine is agility.
    As far as J10 concern touching the quality and performance of European is non. Even Pakistan is helping China in modification of aircrafts through importing avionics from European country. As we know China is facing defence embargo from European Union. China is still chasing the same track of Russian defence product linage.
    May be some ex engineer can tell how many modification PAK engineers made when Mig17,19,21 imported from China.
  5. CanadianPad
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    CanadianPad FULL MEMBER

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    i agree.... try to spend money wisely then spend on defence.
    every year military comes out with these big budget items..... where is the money for that.
    India can spend ..let them spend.They can certainly afford it.
    Canada only has F-18's..... they dont go out and spend cause they dont have to.
    Defence needs changes with time.......its time Pak military look at its defence differently.
  6. JEFF
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    JEFF FULL MEMBER

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    IAF will not going for a F-18 rather it is F/A-18 Super hornets.

    Setting of new infrastructure and associated is now a things of past and nothing but a old myth. Boeing has already collaborating with several Indian companies lncluding TATA’s to develop Spare parts for F/A-18 SH.

    When one have the legacy of operating variety of aircraft of Russian, European, French as well as Indian then I don’t think above written is any big deal.

    Even Price and huge cost per plane is now steadily becoming a thing of past, in current budget there is already provision for extra capital expenditure in the need of hour.

    If one can shell out $1.05 billion for only 6 C-130 then MRCA deal is not a big issue.

    India have its independent policy of containing its adversaries and it has following this policy quite successfully since its inception. Recent spicy statement of Indian Foreign minister to US of no need of guiding or Teaching India over its bilateral ties with Iran has already demonstrated this policy quite successfully.

    How can they ban all exports of spares since all the spare parts including much tauted AESA will be produce in India under TOT agreement which has also got green signal from US then I can assure you that US would never try to do the mistakes of sanctioning spare parts with Economical prosperous country in the world.


    But china didn’t caved in.

    So banning of spares for PAF’s F-16 translate you banning of spares for Indian F/A-18 SH?

    But India know how to deal with in this very black market quite brilliantly.

    This is an old myth, that will never gona happen unless IAF fallen in love with MRCA like MKI.

    This is very possible regarding the sale of Patriotic SAMS from US to maintain the balance in the region but seems highly unlikely as far as sophistication of Patriotic as well as budget of PAF.

    Only three squadrons of those enough to counter F-18, how does it so?

    I don’t need to go in detail about F-15, May be Pakistani members over here explain about viability in PAF fleet.


    Best of luck for your exams.
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  7. Muradk
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    Muradk PDF THINK TANK: CONSULTANT

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    Sohail: Your data on F-15's is wrong , 100 kills and no defeat, 1991 Desert Shield 4 F-15 were shot down, and one of them was a Birg Gen. General Horner was commanding and his deputy decided to do couple of missions and he got shot down.
    And I would'nt worry about the IAF getting F-18s, Dude they can hardly fly Hawks:lol:
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  8. sohailbutt
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    sohailbutt FULL MEMBER

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    sir i completely agree with u 100%, but the data on F-15's kills was a quote taken from a paragraph from Boeing's website, i have not edited the data at all, but i agree with u, here is the full paragraph from where i took the data:

    "The F-15 family of aircraft has a perfect air-combat record of more than 100 victories and zero defeats. F-15s downed four MiG-29 fighters during the Balkan conflict and 33 of the 35 fixed-wing aircraft Iraq lost in air combat during Operation Desert Storm. During the Balkan conflict, the F-15E was the only fighter able to attack ground targets around the clock, in all weather conditions."

    http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/f15/docs/F-15E_overview.pdf

    ur right abut them who cant even fly hawks properly n thinkin of flyin f-18s:cheesy:
  9. Myth_buster_1
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    Myth_buster_1 SENIOR MEMBER

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  10. sohailbutt
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    sohailbutt FULL MEMBER

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    REPLY TO JEFF.

    Regardin ur 1st point it is quite clear to for me n u to understand wut IAF is goin to go for, i think ive clearly mentioned in the first post, read it again to clarify urself, i clearly meant SH it can be seen clearly.

    Coming on to ur 2nd point, yes spares can be developed but in quantities mentioned by Boeing u jus cannot make spares in unlimited quantites n use them, there r always limits to the amounts of spares that u can make.

    Reply to ur 3rd point, I'm sorry US aircraft aint like none other, u know this, Russian is full of old tech, n even European manfacturers lack behind US, because US is the trend setter!!!, has anyone come up with a 5th generation aircraft, even Russians r still in the designin phase of their 5th generation aircraft as far as Europeans are concerned dont know when they r goin to bring their 5th generation out possibly when US has already manufactured its 6th generation fighter!!!!

    Reply to ur 4th point, jus tell me wut is the use of spendin $15 Billion to buy Sh when boeing has already stated that they r goin to take this SH into a 5th generation aircraft in the comin few years, by the time u get the technology after 2012, we would be lookin into 5th Generation fighters like F35's which I'm pretty sure PAF will go for cause our Turkish brothers have already commited themselves to a 100 F-35's. U can use this $15 billion big ticket purchase n improve ur failed Tejas fighter n Arjuns, that way u will get self reliance n u will not fill beoing's pockets who will simply make more advanced version of SH a 5th generation one.

    Reply to ur 5th point, there was a guy who went to a pharmacy n he asked for a medicine, the guy said him only 1 packet of the medicine he was annoyed he increased his purchase from 1 packet to 20 packs at the same moment, it's not abut spending money but u have ur pockets full of cash at this time, u shuld spend money in the quatities u need to, jus don't close ur eyes n distribute money to lockheed or anyone else, wut is the use of buyin C-130's when u r makin ur own transport aircraft???? it is not how hard PAK hits India it is how good THEY hit them when they are in a fight with them that's why we survived 60 years of Independance with extremist always keepin an evil eye on our Country n willin to strike us anytime they get a chance.

    Reply to ur 6th point, Indians need to learn not to teach US lessons as they r doin now, u think u r smart at sayin wut u said to US, US is a real ***** n it will kick India's *** when it needs to jus wait n see, can't u see wut it did to Russia, learn some lessons from history, US cannot see some one comin near to it's level so it eliminates that country if ur's try to do that which im pretty sure u will then ur country will learn a hard lesson next after Russia.

    Reply to ur 7th point, hello wake up, they gave a green signal for the export of AESA not TOT AESA they wuld never give this tech to anyone, by the way can u provide me with a source that they have allowed indians to manufacture AESA in their country. U talk abut economical prosperous countru wut was ur dear friend Russia when it was broken by Bin Laden into pieces, it was a super power, so jus don't sink in this scenario that if u have a strong economy US will not keep an evil eye on u. US strategy is they will dry all the water from the river, then when u have no choice left to drink from u will beg for the water US has, get my point. Goin the US way, Russia will not be happy!!!!

    Reply to ur 8th, 9th n 10th points, please clearly specify wut u mean by ur 8th point, I think india shuld learn lesson that not only PAF's F-16 spares were banned but even Turkey's F-16's spares were banned as one of the forum members mentioned it earlier, so get my point US doesn't give $hit as to who anyone is they will ban spares when they need to. Jus wonderin how will India have good experience in dealin with black markets, it has no need to, don't u think.

    Reply to ur 11th n 12th point, o really old myth that India will not go for extra 74 when their squadrons strength has dramatically fallen, how will u bring ur sqaudron strength bak to normal, by buyin more jets u jus can't bring in ur Tejas to fill the gap cause even it is no where near ready after Billions in R & D. U talk abut budget PAK budget is like a glacier u can only see $4.5 billion at the top but they spend more than this, one of the members stated in his post that PAK has already crossed it allocated budget, so do u think our budget is wut we say to the world, NO!!!!! jus dont think we cant afford Patriot's, if PAF thinks it needs them they will get them no matter wut!!!! n we r not unbalancin the the balance of power in the region it is u who r doin that!!!!! wut we do is just a reply to wut u do!!!!!

    Reply to ur 13th, 14th n 15th points, PAF has always operated lower number of jets to ur 750 we operate 450 approximately so IF we buy 3 squadrons i think its fine because we have our JF-17 comin up with Western goodies on it so we don't need to purchase expensive aircraft we will build the aircraft at home n buy weapons from abroad. PAF already operates a 2 engine fighter as i said IF they feel the need of goin this way they will no matter wut!!!!! Thank's for wishin me best of luck for my exams, it's my second year finals:taz:
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  11. AgNoStiC MuSliM
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    AgNoStiC MuSliM PDF Veteran

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    Jeff:

    1. Whats your source for the US agreeing allow ToT on the AESA vs just allowing assembly, if that?

    2. Also, is Boeing currently producing critical parts for the F-18 in India, or has it merely inked MoU's to do so if and when the contract gets landed?

    3. The Su30's are also license manufactured in India (the same option being suggested by the US from what I know) and they are grounded due to lack of spares from Russia, how is the F-18 License manufacture going to be different?

    4. Turkey has also been producing the F-16 under license, and even now imports critical systems from the US for assembly.

    Just looking for valid links that India will actually get enough tech transfer to manufacture every critical component (especially AESA) of the F-18, rather than just assemble.
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  12. asaad-ul-islam
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    asaad-ul-islam SENIOR MEMBER

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    PAF need not match every single aircraft in the IAF inventory. '65 was the same as it is now. IAF had much more aircraft in numbers and types.

    Besides, whatever IAF will get for MRCA will be quite a while from now. The earliest IAF could get an aircraft would be around 2011-2012. PAF has until then to evolve the JF-17's capabilities.

    Other than that, our missile defense systems(both indigenous and purchased) should be enough to deter any offensive.
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  13. blain2
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    blain2 SENIOR MODERATOR

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    ToT on AESA is NOT Happening. HAL will get the radars and they would put them on the aircraft with guidance from the US sources. This is the way things have been done with the Turks and Scandinavian countries and I see nothing exceptional being done here for the Indians...I think some of our Indian friends are getting a bit carried away by the US offer.

    Having stated the above, IAF can, like PAF absorb US aircraft. It will take some more time but again its not out of question as they have always flown European aircraft if not American.

    F/A-18 would be a threat greater than the Su-30MKI simply owing to the fact that serviceability on the Super Hornets would be much higher than the MKI and the Hornets are a much more proven MR platform than the MKIs. In WVR, F-16s are equal or better than the F/A-18s and with JHMCS on both, it would be about equal.

    In the BVR arena, if IAF receives AIM-120Ds, PAF by that time would also have the same or even before the IAF receives them for as long as the relations stay as they are between Pakistan and the US.

    On a side note, IAF really have no idea what a difference an American aircraft would make. They are singing praises about the MKI now, but if either the F-16 or the Super Hornet was inducted in the IAF, they would start looking at the Russian aircraft a bit differently after appreciating the serviceability, support and capability of the US aircraft. Without a doubt, US aircraft are a better bang for the buck in the long run.

    PAF knows this well thus will be worried about the induction of the F/A-18 within the IAF.
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  14. Energon
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    Energon SENIOR MEMBER

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    I love these threads. They are just so entertaining. Keep on with the good work people.
  15. Mark Sien
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    Mark Sien SENIOR MEMBER

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    blain2;

    With regards to AIM-120D, AIM-9X & JHMCS going to IAF...I think the PAF has already taken that into the equation. Back in 2003 if you can recall...a forum member named chursy mentioned a BVRAAM project called 'T-Darter' was 'in development'. Turns out - according to the latest media - that T-Darter is a South African development to produce something in the league of the MBDA Meteor. We have already seen the image of Archer HMDS on PAF documentaries and Richard Fisher mentioning use of an 'A-Darter derived' system on JF-17.

    In other words it appears that PAF is spreading maximum capability to its mainstay JF-17...hence the threat of Super Hornet entering IAF is quite serious. With that said, I think the whole F-16 media fiasco was/is nothing more than a fiasco...let's just wait for an official PAF response. Given the sheer number of used F-16s available and the fact that Block-52+ infrastructure is being added to PAF, it would be strange that PAF would just limit itself to 18 C/D.

    Chances are that it is working on expanding the F-16 fleet quite extensively - just like the Mirage III/V fleet was - so that the JF-17 is properly supplemented. Think of the upgrades one could give F-16 - not only JHMCS, Link-16, AIM-9X, etc, but also SABR AESA and AIM-120C5/C7/D. I say wait up for IDEAS 2008 and see exactly what is going on with the whole F-16 business...could be very interesting as LM will seek to exploit the market in Pakistan.

    It is also clear that the PAF will fine-tune the JF-17 airframe that could help serviceability. For one new generation Chinese engines such as WS-12 would mark drastic improvement in field performance and maintenance compared to RD-93. Next the possibility of using nanocomposite parts in the future - especially if they wish to use more composites in the fuselage and try out a type of blended wing approach.

    I think much of PAF's answer will not come in a direct linear purchase...we should look at the maximal/optimal approach of ensuring all aircraft have key capabilities. The 2020s will mark another shift as PAF will put into use the local AWACS developed with China; probably a locally developed data-link interface; upgrade of air defence, etc. IMO the key will be in the next fighter PAC will produce - may it be a JF-17 NG or different aircraft entirely - with the past sight of Super Hornet & Falcon accounted.
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