PAF should've invested more on J-10s rather than JF-17s

Discussion in 'Pakistan Air Force' started by Manticore, Jan 18, 2009.

  1. Manticore

    Manticore SENIOR MODERATOR

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    PAF should've invested more on j-10s rather than jf17s.
    =========================================================
    certain people are putting the comparisons interms of general capability like this..

    1]jf17 (block1) = 70% of f16c/jas39 grippen
    2]jf17 (block2) = 90% of f16c/jas39 grippen
    3]j10 = 85% of f16c/jas39 grippen

    (i might be wrong)
    keeping in mind from the above stats that both jf17 and j10 are below block52 (in the 70s and 80 percent range)[/ , i have some questions quite for some time. i'm a medical docter , so please bear with my ignorance. i want some expert input here.why didnt we stick to j10 or sticked to upgraded jf17

    j10 pros

    *why did we invest so much money on jf17 research when ,, tot alongwith 2 extra squadrons of j10 couldve been acquired in the same money?....only to increase ac numbers to increase sortie rates on india?

    *why didnt we concentrate only on j10, making different blocks/upgrades...diversifying and specifying their roles?
    *at the moment f7s are our backbone.. they are also not ''our'' product... if we are planning to upgrade,, than why not go for quality aircraft that would serve us years to come..(i.e j10)

    *china is also making j10 the backbone
    *cost of j10 could ve been negogiated
    *along with tot to get building experience plus pulling the cost down
    *j10 batches of different teck couldve been made to pull down cost

    *the avionics on j10b would be same/comparable with j11b, we wont have to go for the costly twin engined j11b [which russia wont allow anyway.. but then again where would russua sue china? also china is the main importer of russian goods.. russia wont affect those relations and might overlook j11 export to paf]

    Present state of j10 'a'
    *****western media is clearly downplaying j10s performance..---on the otherhand chinese media is speaking volumes of this j10 jet... even say that the composites & avionics of upgraded j11b are put in this relatively lighter (as compared to su30) jet.. thus making it better in dogfighting ascompared to su27/30-- where do the 'unbiased' opinions put the present j10, paf export j10variant ,subsequent super10 respectively against other contempory jets? i.e can it compete with f18 superhornet or rafale?



    The indian factor
    india is also getting 200 su30 and 126 mrca making the better specs craft in more number[/b] what will we be having to match their capabilities? Afterall the jf-17 is supposed to counter iaf
    **





    JF17 pros

    *already some of the systems put in j10 are in jf17 (so ivwe read) so, the subsequent batch inshallah if better might reach the complexity of j10... so why then go for more j10s if [[gradually]] u'll end up upgrading jf7s to j10s (i.e f16 block52+)performance anyway.

    where does the jf-17 lack as compared to the j10 and how does this handicap affect paf? can the paf ''afford'' this handicap?why didnt we design a medium wt fighter? why didnt we not make a air superiority design delta/canards


    what will be the level till which we would ultimately upgrade jft before the 'cost effectiveness' diminishes and the cost of jft blk3 reaches close to j10

    what will be handicaps even in jft blk3 due to structural size restictions and design properties?

    at the moment the underpowered engine and the radar is making me wonder if we could be able to get some decent western tech other than darters from south africa.without that jf17 is really just a modified f7pg...


    are there some good choice in engines /radars/avionics for us (other than chinese)?


    =============mirage rose=================================
    where do the mirage3 stand against mirage2000 after their rose upgrades?do they still suck in maneovering?mirage 3 are interceptors...but i doubt that the 1950s jet can do that against indian hightech multirole jets even after the upgrades

    F-16s

    are the f16 block52 given with some codes restrictions? woud the EDA ones ever get released?



    Another western fighter option?
    Should we choose another western fighter which comes 2nd in the indian mmrca race? This fighter would also has better range , payload , avionics etc..... but the numbers we could buy wont be very high as compared to the other option of j10s

    5th gen fighter
    we should clearly define one chinese 5th gen. and only induct 20 aircrafts for long range bombing/airsuperiority/deterent/protection of our skies etc... of western origin rather than to wait for chinese 5th gen as there are no official chinese 5th gen fighters in the open to counter pakfa


    Ideal LOW END to HIGH END ratio?
    jft blk1: jft blk2 : f16 + j10 : chinese 5th gen
    . ...and i want to know about this by our veterans here ,to ellaborate on this fact:pop:
     
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    Last edited: Aug 4, 2009
  2. Luftwaffe

    Luftwaffe PDF THINK TANK: ANALYST

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    J-10 is evenly maneuverable like F-16 block 52+ no doubt about it...No PAF might give more knowledge to Chinese once it receives its F-16 blk 52 which will help J-10s but we must invest in JF-17..
    J-17 block II will be 90% = F-16 block 52 in terms of maneuverability
    In terms of Avionics it will be equal or slight better than F-16C block 52 it might get a downgraded AESA radar and mach 2.0 Chinese engine.
    I would want PAF to invest in J-17 and later on block II should have extreme design characteristics similar to F-16C/D block 52 that is again and again i stress JF-17 should have been initially designed equal in size to the f-16 and listed it in the medium class category its never too late we need JF-17 next block to be similar to F-16 in role and design characteristics i.e same size wings, modification to tail, other structure.
     
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  3. mean_bird

    mean_bird PDF THINK TANK: CONSULTANT

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    well you partly answer your own questions. You said "certain people" are saying that does not necessarily means its true. I suggest you check the specifications yourself..they are widely available on the net. Also in what sense are you classifying the JF-17 to be 70% of an F-16? in maneuverability? avionics and radar? weapons? in what sense? For instance if PAF can get hold of the AESA radar for the next block than F-16 doesn't have it and neither can PAF upgrade it with an AESA.



    The good thing about JF-17 is that since the airframe is decoupled from the avionics, you can make it as simple as you want or as advanced as you like. And I think PAF is going to have a combination of low-tech and hi-tech JF-17s.

    The advantages of investing in JF-17 is
    1. Its 'our' plane, which means we are in control of it. No sanctions, no issues

    2. Its a huge experience for us to be involved in the design of an aircraft from start to finish and know every technical detail about aircraft designing. Its better to learn how to fish than buy it off the market.

    3. Its cost effective. Remember, we arent building the next eurofighter but replacing our again F-7s with something more powerful yet cost effective. J10s are expensive to be inducted in such large numbers.

    4. Since we will be manufacturing most of the JF-17s here, spare parts , maintenance, up gradation, having the infrastructure to be able to think of doing something in future ourselves, or upgrading other planes based on this experience, etc all these will be handy.

    5. We might be able to, and currently have to some extent, export it and earn some profit from it. It also enhances our industrial base, manpower, jobs, etc.





    because J10 is NOT our product. We are already getting an upgraded version of J10 which you can think of as the next block.

    SU-30 is a huge plane so naturally its slow and sluggish. Its (SU-30s) main strength is not dog-fighting but its radar and BVR. Also Su-30 is more maintenance intensive, more costly to operate than a J10. People tend to underestimate these little things but they play quite a role.

    Let the official statement about our J10s (FC-20) come out and we will know exactly whats the package.


    I am not an expert on Mirages but definitely the Mirage2000 would be better than MirageIIIs. The ROSE upgrades did improve that MirageIIIs but still.

    Also the MirageIII is an interceptor whereas the Mirage2000 is a multirole fighter. The JF-17 is more comparable to the Mirage2000 if not better.



    says who??
    where did you learn that from?

    dude, there is no 5th gen aircraft on offer to us, not even an F-18 super hornet which aint a 5th gen aircraft. Even if it were, we cannot possible afford the F-22 raptor which is $100+ million per aircraft.



    Remember, the PAF doctrine is NOT to match IAF in equal numbers. Our airforce is for deterence of such things like the surgical strikes being talked about. And for that, the expected fleet is good enough. I case of a full-fledged war we are counting on our nuclear and missile deterrence and not PAF. That detterance is good enough to gurantee us that PAF will never be brought to exhaustion in case of a war.
     
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  4. Patriot

    Patriot ELITE MEMBER

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    It's not possible to make F16 useless just by applying a code and fyi we will in fact use F16's against India in case of war.Stop watching hollywood movies :D
     
  5. Manticore

    Manticore SENIOR MODERATOR

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    *mirage 3 are interceptors...but i doubt that the 1950s jet can do that against indian hightech jets... even lybia dont want them![MIRAGE3 IN SOME FORUMNS ARE BEING PITTED AGAINST MIRAGE2000 BY PAKISTANIS MAKING ME CONFUSED]
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2009
  6. mean_bird

    mean_bird PDF THINK TANK: CONSULTANT

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    dude, I suggest you read the threads about JF-17 and J-10 and you will have all your answers. To start with, you are assuming too much.

    1. The current RD-93 is an improved version of the RD-33 (currently used in Mig 29 which india has). So its already an improved engine and the under-development chinese engine will be a further improvement. No need to go beyond that. You dont need to put a trucks engine in a car and it wont work.

    Currently we have chinese radar which are pretty decent. For the next phase, possible radars could be italian, french or even Israeli (through china).

    2. J-10 is superior to JF-17 is some areas and are also much more costly. Estimated deal will bring J-10 to around $41 million a piece. Thats quite expensive unless you're willing to pay for it. Also numbers do matter as we have a long border to protect.

    3. Again J-10 replacing F-7s is not feasible.

    4. we cannot live in 'perhaps' they become available. We have to do things now and do things that WE CAN AFFORD.

    7. F7pg does have BVR.


    Seriously, I advise you to look at a few threads here before making such questions.
     
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  7. Luftwaffe

    Luftwaffe PDF THINK TANK: ANALYST

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    Antibody no grifo radar for JF-17 to start off with :) Chinese radar for sure...
    Secondly JF-17 is a long term project Air Force has plans to take JF-17 to the limits where F-16 stands today from design, avionics to engine...Pak-China collaboration indeed it was in their minds to use a Chinese new mach 2 engine for next block or after 50-70 initial planes..u have to understand much more is going on in China regarding both JF-17 and J-10 just keep this in mind Pakistan doesn't want to rely on Russians at all at this moment...
    JF-17>>from 2014 and on...AESA radar, Chinese MACH 2 engine, structural changes possibly next block are categorize as medium than light fighters in terms of design...
    the price tag of each JF-17 in next 5 years will reach $28-30 million dollars max with AESA radar/chinese engine etc, which is pretty decent price tag with performance similar to F-16 blk 52 atleast. While J-10 cost will reach $50 million dollars after AESA radar and TVC/thrust vector and other avionics already its cost is 40 million dollars in current state i even suspect price tag to go at 52 million dollars and it will just kill the market for gripen/F-16s/mirage 2000-5 and possibly mig35/f-18 for the fact the performance and reasonable avionics.
     
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  8. Manticore

    Manticore SENIOR MODERATOR

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    @meanbird
    dude ive been looking in this forumn for over 3 years.. i just joined 2 days back...

    The fact that we are upgrading jf17 itself would skyrocket the pricetag...

    Secondly i dont have time to watch films.. but as every pakistani, i become tense on watching news channels.. this is not FUNNY...i ''asked'' a veteran on the question of f16 codes.. i'm not trying to proove it!....


    I know the pricetag of j10s, you copied that from wikipedia

    I am aware of the engine put in the first 50 but they are relatively underpowered... as for the chinese upcoming engine their are mixed signals coming on its progress...


    *the informative thing that i now know is f7s carry bvr...i thought only mirages carry them..thanks..
    *YES pak cant afford many j10 with full upgradations.. agreed
    .
    @Luftwaffe
    . thanks for your info luftwaffe...both of us posted in the same second with some same points..
     
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  9. Luftwaffe

    Luftwaffe PDF THINK TANK: ANALYST

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    Well i think in a way you are right Pakistan should have approached french as well for engines but then again the proliferation matter comes in.
    Are you asking me or someone else about the price tag of J-10??? confused..
    I only seen JF-17 info on paf page wiki till date i did not visited about J-10 for wiki for the fact i would rather visit Chinese websites:))
     
  10. Manticore

    Manticore SENIOR MODERATOR

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    no.., i was reffering to meanbird... dude you are really a spirit killer..you telling a person to go look at other threads , and sizing me up in one post is.....
    .
    ive answered you on jet engines aswell on the skyrocketting of jf17 price.. plz elaborate now but plz dont be ''mean'' bird:D...as i said in my first post im not a militery professional only a diehard enthusiast
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2009
  11. Anwar2

    Anwar2 BANNED

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    Both JF-17 and J-10 are worthwhile investments. The price tag will cease to matter if the Pakistani Defense industry gets meaningful work share in the J-10 program as well.

    F-16 Blk 52 may not really suffer from "embedded code" issues as to make them unflyable. But under the terms of the FMF (Foreign Military Finance) deal US personnel will be stationed in Pakistan and will have custodial rights to crypto keys and Mil-Std-1760 stores management elements. In simple words we may not be able to fire AMRAAM or AIM-9's for long without US understanding.
    If the US puts embargo on Pakistan, we will still be able to fly the Blk 52's for some time but not for long.
     
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  12. Manticore

    Manticore SENIOR MODERATOR

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    no wonder pakistan is not persueing many f16s..:disagree:
     
  13. mean_bird

    mean_bird PDF THINK TANK: CONSULTANT

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    I am just asking you to look into other threads as there are lots and lots of information about all the questions you asked. I am also a newbie here and I have benefited a lot from these threads so I thought you would also. Nothing to kill spirit or offensive there. Anything wrong with that?

    Also its not about me answering you or you answering me. Its just a discussion. You think fewer J10s would have been better, I think combination of J10s and JF-17s is much better as we have both quality of J10s and quantity of JF-17s. So cheer up, nothing of a spirit killer there :cheers:

    About the engine I told you that there aren't that many options IMO. You cant just take any engine and fit it and we do not really need that much of a powerful engine. Either way, the RD-93 is fitted in the first batch.
    PAF wouldn't like to go for a US engine for obvious reasons. Russia won't offer us any better ones. So it is going to be some european or chinese which is reportedly much powerful since it is an improved version. So hopefully that would not be "underpowered". As for the reports on its progress, there is still time before the second batch. Also the fact that china hasn't bought new engines from russia seems to indicate that some progress have been made on chinese engines. So I am pretty hopeful.

    The basic aim is to be able to carry more weapons and for that the ACM has already said that methods are being devised to increase it. Also another way to improve performance would be to use composites. Even in its current "underpowered" stage, its using better engines than the MiG-29 which uses RD-33.

    About the price, well JF-17 in its current state is $15 million and maintenance and training is our in-house job. While that may cost but atleast the amount is injected into our economy and we don't have to pay with precious forex. Current J10s are around $30 million and with maintenance, etc in the deal it would cost us $41 million a piece. Add to the fact that if PAF wants upgrades as in western weapons, etc it would be much more costlier. While JF-17 would be in the range of $20-25 if we decide to go for western radars and weapons. So still a difference of $15 million per plane and we are inducting in the hundreds so you can do the maths.

    Regarding PAF investing in J10s as in partners, well that is under the "assumption" that the chinese would allow that. So its an assumption and not ground reality. China is our good friend....very good friend but doesnt mean there isnt a limit to what we can get and what we can't. Especially considering that the J10 is currently China's premier fighter jet, I think that would be out of the question. Another fact is that we won't even be manufacturing 100% of the JF-17 in pakistan so we do not have the infrastructure yet to consider the same for the J10. Here I am assuming licensed production of the J10 in pakistan.

    So considering all that, I think PAF did a pretty good job in making the decision of investing and procuring the JF-17 aircrafts especially since the JF-17s would be our back bone and not frontline hi-tech planes. And we want our backbone to be quite strong , in terms of quantity. And J10 would fill our requirement as a frontline hi-tech MRCA.
     
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  14. mean_bird

    mean_bird PDF THINK TANK: CONSULTANT

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    Sorry I didn't get it..can you please explain what exactly that means?

    Also does that also apply to the 18 new F-16s we are getting that are not part of FMF?
     
  15. jalip

    jalip FULL MEMBER

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    can any body confirm when pakistan will get J 10b:china::pakistan: