PA TANKS comparison with contempory tanks

Discussion in 'Pakistan Army' started by Manticore, Feb 25, 2009.

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  1. hellfire
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    hellfire SENIOR MEMBER

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    Actually, you idiot, they were far better. Our sensors had ZERO problems identifying units moving into or out of theatre. Zilch.

    Thanks for personalising your remark and blowing your cool. much appreciated and civilised approach i agree. Idiot is usually a mental retard with IQ way below 60 so you are kind of off here, tested 160 for that. was kind of too personal here. and right US had ZERO episodes of friendly fire incidents thanks to your "sensors". Arty units anyways stay far behind, even if you are with armored elements so I think you were a bit way off ......

    Gee whiz, hellfire, you're talking to the absolutely wrong guy here. I don't care what was there. I know these unassailable facts which you are permitted to digest IAW your abilities to absorb-

    i know am talking to the wrong guy .... you are too fixated in US politicians being righteous ALWAYS!!!!


    1.) An Iraqi fascist regime is utterly dismantled.


    to be replaced by a "democratic" government which rules pretty much the same way by miscarriage of justice. example is recent trial and guilty verdict for Tariq Aziz in a case that even International Human Rights watch groups have said as being unfair and without proof as the guy was not even in country at the time of said crimes. cheers to US!!!

    2.) Iraqi irridentist ambitions for conquest, twice demonstrated with Iran and Kuwait, is a non-issue for the forseeable future.

    lets see, now since when have you become pro-Iran? here wait, was not the country of Iran being bled while US provided arms to its enemies who were gassing its citizens? Now my history may be wrong as you have pointed out.

    3.) The b'aath leadership is CRUSHED and it's leader and sons ground temperature.

    the bush junior did what papa could not ..... destroyed the communal harmony in a nation which was one of the most advanced and tolerant societies of its time ..... nice way of fighting dictatorship!!!! now am sure you plan the same for China and Pakistan next time round? so whns the strike scheduled?

    4.) Kurdish and shia aspirations are unleashed and neither race lives under the suffrage of Sunni minority domination.

    Aspirations of Texans (original inhabitants) would be welcome too. dont see US doing that do we? Unfair now :disagree: Iran and Turkey still kick the Kurds around, when do you plan to invade these two nations for protection of rights of "poor" Kurds?

    5.) All vestiges of WMD-past, present, and future-have been dismantled and effectively neutered for the foreseeable future. No more gas attacks upon Kurds, Iranians or anybody else. Fini.

    now where are the promised nukes as claimed by US in UN assembly to justify the war on Iraq? and again when are you invading North Korea and Iran? Those two nations are probably more dangerous right? And what about US still sitting on largest stockpile ever? we feel threatened as does the whole of Islamic world .... when do you "neutralise" them?

    6.) A democratic muslim/arab nation now possesses the opportunity to determine it's own future.

    when is saudi arabia on your democratic list? lets see you invade that country to "instill" democracy where monarch is hated by people and islamists alike for autocracy and absence of basic freedom.

    your morals have no ideals or basis sir.


    How #6 goes remains to be seen but I'm UTTERLY pleased with our efforts and bear no poor opinion of our strategic intelligence services. Hope that helps...:agree:

    be pleased....for US ensured millions of Iraqi children have no future, education gone, no scope for development, peace ..... great going sir


    However, your red herrings aside, we're discussing TACTICAL and OPERATIONAL intelligence. My army, air force, and marines control those sensors and we had (and have) an unparalleled view of the modern battlefield, thank you very much.

    agreed .... but what was fed to you, was scripted in halls of white house, not NSC or pentagon ....... and thats anything but tactical and operation info ....

    Do you know that I could care less. So Schwartzkopf gave you a single briefing BEFORE the battle opened, eh? Big deal. Meanwhile, I didn't see any I.A. agency on any distribution list of intel I received.:blah::blah:


    i-am-right. when thats the belief, one really cant see anything other than what one wants to see ........ 6 days was a long time for the briefing .... anyways yup big deal, the plans were being formulated there dear ....... ever heard of Op. Brasstacks? Suggest you read your own army's assessment of that exercise done by IA ..... its something of why the said gentleman was consulted ..... also IA is not the one to pass info to US .... US had own sources with same ...... and SIGINT-HUMINT teams of India in Afghanistan are providing intel to US on necessity basis for ops...... and its again need to know .... you get a hard brief and then you act not wonder where the source is, that is the liasion offrs task

    Those usually come classified NOFORN (Not Releasable to Foreign Nationals/Governments/Non-US Citizens: US government classification control).

    am not talking about US handing out info am I?



    JSTARS said otherwise and I trust them one hell of a lot more than you.

    good for you.


    You really know your American military history.:disagree: Not that I'm asking you to but, please understand, I'd prefer that you not butcher it as you administer your "lessons".

    I know a fair bit of it. hooper was type mistake something i corrected then itself, read my post again ... it shall show time and date of correction. was reading of cricket so hooper (from west indies carl hooper:undecided:)

    That "dimwit" general to whom you refer is named HOOKER. Joseph Hooker. You refer to the Battle of Chancellorsville. It had NOTHING to do with the Potomac River.

    I pointed out had corrected my spelling .... anyways ..... you are right where he lost, but he lost the initiative as he followed the retreating Gen Lee's army into Pennsylvania and he spent whole loads oftime waiting to prepare for his move after getting reinforcements from garrisson at Harpers Ferry (which the war department turned down) which if am not wrong is near abouts to Potomac river if you recall ...... this was his first mistake and second when he sat out the winters across rappahannock and rapidian rivers ...... for the said battle where even with greater numbers and superior deployment plan he lost ........

    Indeed they are and there'd be little purpose to addressing those gaps in your education at this late date. I'm convinced you've no competency to address air-land battle. In point of fact, you seem to really want some type of discussion on the history of mechanized manuever theory. Far more broad an application and lacking specificity.

    not looking for self styled lidell hart please ......
    anyways your closing lines now ..... this was last on this line from my side ... have wavered off too much off the topic ...... wont happen hence
    cheers ......

    take care,
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  2. S-2
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    "Arty units anyways stay far behind"

    Telling a former artillery officer my business now, are you? Shows, again, how little you know about air-land battle doctrine nor combat operations during DESERT STORM.

    I doubt you'd know one thing about the M-110 203mm raids our marines ran north of the berm. More idiocy.

    "Idiot is usually a mental retard with IQ way below 60 so you are kind of off here, tested 160 for that."

    Sure-if you say so but your functional competency here hasn't registered a pulse yet.

    "lets see, now since when have you become pro-Iran? here wait, was not the country of Iran being bled while US provided arms to its enemies who were gassing its citizens? Now my history may be wrong as you have pointed out."

    You miss the point, Mr. 160 I.Q. THE POINT is that Saddam had a demonstrated bent to do so...against anybody having twice demonstrated a determination to invade shias and then sunnis while attempting to hold other sunnis (Saudi Arabia) at grievous risk. He was a demonstrated risk to the region's stability.

    Your geo-strategic perspectives are mal-formed.

    "destroyed the communal harmony in a nation which was one of the most advanced and tolerant societies of its time ..... nice way of fighting dictatorship!!!!"

    That's a precious comment that needs to stand alone. So it shall on my post lest you later delete it for sheer lunacy.

    "Iran and Turkey still kick the Kurds around, when do you plan to invade these two nations for protection of rights of "poor" Kurds?"

    Really? Care to indicate Iran's actions against the KRG? I know that the Turks have raided northern Iraq twice since 2006...but they did so with our specific help.

    "and again when are you invading North Korea and Iran? Those two nations are probably more dangerous right?"

    Are you typically this dissembling? However you wish to argue the past I know you'll agree that shias, kurds, and, yes-even you, sleep more soundly at night knowing that any further ambitions to manufacture or use WMD harbored by Saddam and his minions have been irrevocably put to rest for the foreseeable future.:agree::usflag:

    "be pleased....for US ensured millions of Iraqi children have no future, education gone, no scope for development, peace ..... great going sir"

    Easy enough to view Iraq's progress in key indicators if you really wished. It's apparent that you don't and I'm not particularly eager to take on your education. Live in delusion as you see fit but that before and after data is pretty easily available.

    $66B in their treasury this year. They've got a real chance which Iraqis didn't have before.

    Thank you, Mr. 160 I.Q.:lol:
  3. Tang0
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    Tang0 FULL MEMBER

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    Back to the M1. Comparisons to the Iraq war are probably not very applicable. Hellfire obviously had not a clue what was going on with "The highway of Death", and I will attribute that to youth and not actually being there. Also, some advice, don't argue the facts of the situation with someone who was there.

    Nonetheless, comparing the IA or PA to Iraq in 1991 is a bad idea. The MIA1 and MIA2 were a generational gap above the T-72, they also enjoyed massive logistical support from the richest nation on earth, and the country which designed and manufactured those systems. All the statements hellfire made about lack of thermal imaging, GPS, depleted uranium KE penetrators, etc, is true. Not only was there a generational gap, the T-72 was deployed, manned, and equipped in such a way as to not be operating at its full battle capacity.

    The desert of Kuwait is a vast plane. Unless dust blocks your vision, in many places you can see until the curvature of the earth prevents you from seeing further. Pakistan does not fit that description very well at all. Anyone who has spent time in a mechanized unit can attest, it is hard to get more than 30 miles without a stoppage because maintenance forces a stop. This gets to be a problem when you don't have spare parts to fix things quickly...

    Despite S-2 somewhat tongue-in-cheek comments about armored columns navigating Iraq, he probably has heard a story at least once or twice about an Abrams getting stuck in the mud. I know I sure have.. "and then the wolverine that came to pull it couldn't do it, and damn near gets stuck itself, and finally Major [X] says, "aww sh*t, destroy it, were going" they hit it with a couple of KE's, but it just dings it, so they drop some thermite grenades in it, and that still ain't good enough, so finally they end up dropping a JDAM on it..." Or so the story goes.

    All of that still does not address the cost of the thing (US$4.35 million), or it notorious fuel consumption (gas turbine engines don't idle well like diesels do), high cost per hour of operation (although much of that may be high US personnel costs) , etc.

    All of this I am sure was noted by the PA when they did operational testing. Is the M1A2 a diffrent beast than what they tested? Certainly. Does it make any more sense to purchase it now than it did then? Not so clear.
  4. S-2
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    Auxilary Power Unit. Saves tons of fuel. Literally.

    "The desert of Kuwait is a vast plane."

    Not at 73 Easting or Medina Ridge. Vast? Yes. Lots of wadis though. You don't need much elevation deviation to create natural berms sufficient to hide a tank brigade. One contour line of elevation is enough to hide a unit until your well inside the kill envelope. McMaster crested a wadi in a sandstorm and took on the world behind the reverse slope.

    "Despite S-2 somewhat tongue-in-cheek comments about armored columns navigating Iraq, he probably has heard a story at least once or twice about an Abrams getting stuck in the mud."

    Only the Chally II can claim to be as fully tested as the M1. After that, it's all informed speculation subject to confirmation by combat.
  5. Tang0
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    Tang0 FULL MEMBER

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    Yes and no. Combat is the best testing possible. It is still situational. Operational live fire testing of actual specimens in "Field Like" conditions might very well be a better indicator of success than actual combat in a situation that is guaranteed not to be repeatable, along with entirely diffrent types of people behind the guns.

    Also, a tank with no spare parts and not enough fuel isn't much use, no matter how well it performs with spare parts and fuel. Course, spares and fuel could be a problem with any tank.

    So the PA is taking an educated risk. They are choosing an unproven system that theoretically meets their needs well compared to a proven system which does not meet all of their needs in a cost-effective manner. Do you take the devil you know, or face the great unknown? Tough call.
  6. hellfire
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    hellfire SENIOR MEMBER

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  7. Tang0
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    One more point was - "highway of death". As most of the iraqi columns were on retreat just at the onset of air war, the allied air force had field day in mauling the best regiments on the highway to basra

    Since you insist:
    frontline: the gulf war | PBS

    Where you will find recounting from people who were actually there: Iraqis, British clean up crews, and US pilots along with gun-cam footage. You will also get top US general's opinions on if the action was justified or not. Just so you know, the air war had been going on since Jan. 17th while "Highway of death" incident happened on February 26th. The clean up crew knew how long the bodies had been decomposing. Forensic evidence along with camera footage. Your statement was simply untrue, and nothing you can say will convince me or anyone else here otherwise.

    From the book "Crusade: The Untold Story of the Persian Gulf War" by Rick Atkinson, there is a quote by an Iraqi tank commander which I will paraphrase. "In 100 days of f-16s I lost 6 tanks, in 10 minutes of Abrams, I lost my entire command." I think that his entire command was around 50 tanks, but I don't have the book handy.

    If you still don't believe me, google "Highway of Death" See any T-72s in any of those pictures? I don't. Mostly soft skinned civilian vehicles.

    I agree with your earlier statements, I don't think the tank's gulf war combat record is necessarily a good way to judge its usefulness to the PA. Don't pretend to know more than you do though.
  8. hellfire
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    hellfire SENIOR MEMBER

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    first of all i would like to thank you for your earlier post and trying to get conversation back to topic. its appreciated and you shall have full cooperation hence on. once again thank you

    One more point was - "highway of death". As most of the iraqi columns were on retreat just at the onset of air war, the allied air force had field day in mauling the best regiments on the highway to basra


    it was a point which served to highlight the fact that coalition forces hit massed retreating forces .... the incident is in late feb around 25th and not jan .... it was a point made to illustrate the fact that such large casualties WILL NOT happen until and unless there was a full retreat. If you recall, there was similar episode of casualties on Iraqi side in initial phases of strikes in January itself at the start of the war. things dont co-relate. howsoever well your target acquisition tech/JSTARs are developed, urban warfare negates such advantages and ANYONE who claims not so is deluding self. Every commander (and here was an army which had just concluded war with iran for over 8 years and knew how to fight in the terrain relatively welll enough) knows not to concentrate his forces at the time of onset of hostilities when even the TV reports indicated a massive buildup of air and naval assets across the region in the build up to war. So the charactrer of casualties and overall casualties just do not add up to an army which was determined to hold the ground .......

    Since you insist:
    frontline: the gulf war | PBS


    that is even in non-conflict scenario between india pakistan across LC. there were snatch raids and attacks mounted without even declaration of hostilities and anyone caught sleeping was thoroughly disfigured. Its normal ..... and its a fact of war.


    Where you will find recounting from people who were actually there: Iraqis, British clean up crews, and US pilots along with gun-cam footage. You will also get top US general's opinions on if the action was justified or not. Just so you know, the air war had been going on since Jan. 17th while "Highway of death" incident happened on February 26th. The clean up crew knew how long the bodies had been decomposing. Forensic evidence along with camera footage. Your statement was simply untrue, and nothing you can say will convince me or anyone else here otherwise.

    mentioned only as example .... of retreating troops being attacked ... not saying army was thoroughly slaughtered in that attack and the highway is the only road connecting kuwaiti city with iraq ...... was unable to clarify my point I guess .......

    From the book "Crusade: The Untold Story of the Persian Gulf War" by Rick Atkinson, there is a quote by an Iraqi tank commander which I will paraphrase. "In 100 days of f-16s I lost 6 tanks, in 10 minutes of Abrams, I lost my entire command." I think that his entire command was around 50 tanks, but I don't have the book handy.

    no denying the superiority of the DU armor and DU KE APFSDs employed by US ..... my point exactly ....

    If you still don't believe me, google "Highway of Death" See any T-72s in any of those pictures? I don't. Mostly soft skinned civilian vehicles.

    you do see a couple ... but majority of regular armor units had chinese T-69s and NOT T-72s (Lions Of Babylon)......which were held by the Republican Guards Unit which had withdrawn and were engaged inside Iraq .... my point is further proved ...... iraqis had begun withdrawl fearing a final attack and kept a brave face just to maximise their bargaining position ..... had they wanted to fight they would have tried to keep maximum republican guards in Kuwait

    I agree with your earlier statements, I don't think the tank's gulf war combat record is necessarily a good way to judge its usefulness to the PA. Don't pretend to know more than you do though.

    my whole point initially was that you can not use Gulf War 1 as a yardstick as the parameters of conflict were different. Indo-Pak scenario is different with neither side an easy pushover like Iraq, or fighting for a regime which is not liked by general people.

    in addition the war was more of psyops and media coup than victory .... i shall request you to go through this easily googled article ....

    Gulf War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    add this to your other sources .... and you shall find some merit ... to what I have pointed out.

    In addition being there does not mean knowing truth ... at every point I have justified my points (and been called idiot for the same) but if am so wrong, why not comprehensively prove points or disprove them?

    If you can apply the equation so easily to any battlefield and attribute your success to your superior equipment,JSTARs etc ... what is with Afghanistan? Why is US failing there?

    a very interesting read on how "revolution in military affiars" is changing the war fighting doctrine in sub-continet at a greater pace than anywhere else, on why US has still a lot to learn from both India and Pakistan on war fighting ......


    http://www.ccc.nps.navy.mil/research/theses/Acosta03.pdf
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  9. hellfire
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    hellfire SENIOR MEMBER

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    the decision of PA not to induct M1 was I guess largely based more on the inaccuracies in the initial field trials in late 80s. Thereafter due to the F-16 episode, the idea was permanently dropped as this would have rendered PA at themercy of US for spares and supplies for a very important component of its defence - the armour which was tantamount to suicide. Also during 90s the US was unwlling to supply to PA (Indo-US relationships were in courtship period, thawed by refuelling facility given by India to US in gulf war 1). These factors were the main determinants of the decision.

    I think it was a wise decision on PA's side. Apart from necessary infrastructure, the economics, the main problem of reliance on US in light of growing Indo-US friendship meant suicide. NOw PA can field a tank which it has built largely, and has the tech to improve, and have true independence on the equipment to be deployed

    can anyone really tell me what is going to be radically different b/w AK1 and AK2?
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  10. S-2
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    "In addition being there does not mean knowing truth ... at every point I have justified my points (and been called idiot for the same) but if am so wrong, why not comprehensively prove points or disprove them?"

    Why waste the time?

    Let's get something straight. I WASN'T THERE. Never said I was. Tang0 did.

    I received intel dumps- INTSUMs, threat estimates, terrain analysis, and, finally, after-action reports. My unit was on orders to deploy to "the mother of all battles" once the first 10,000 or so dead G.I.s made it back to our horrified public.

    Most of all I didn't need any of that to prove you wrong. Nor did I need to have served in the military or even have been alive then. Your presentation of events surrounding the "highway of death" and American civil war history were a gross distortion-almost laughably so.

    Easily researched but you chose laziness over diligence and presumed the worst of our poor minds. And was easily proven wrong. You're not justifying much of anything with me at this point, sir.

    As such, you were poorly served by your 160 I.Q and deserve my distrust and disdain until your discourse shows improvement.

    Thanks.:)
  11. Super Falcon
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    Super Falcon ELITE MEMBER

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    for me arjun stands in the class of T 72 may be im wrong but no one seems to be interested in it
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  12. hellfire
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    hellfire SENIOR MEMBER

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    actually not ... it is more enroute in heavier classes ..... the armor is advanced and home grown composite, with more of western designing practices .... it has shown to hold true to protection from Israeli APFSDs in close ranges also ... and has more than adequate protection from tandem warheads being sported in ATGMs and projectiles like RPG-18s nowadays. The poor interest on side of IA is due to the fact that T-90S was inducted when Arjun failed to materialise in time leading to fulfilment of requirment of 1st line of armor till 2020 with T-72s (upgraded ones) forming 2nd line. So the logic of induction of new system that shall need eventual replacement beginning 2020 on is hinderance for IA which fails to understand that the same can be upgraded in various versions as the tech development progresses ...... also with addition of latest protection suites (they are under field trials) the category of the MBT is into M1 types with tech being radically upgraded and potentiated since 2006 making it suitable for deployment and formidable fighting veh.

    the complaints of IA regarding logistics and transportation as also bridging equipment were also met with Indian railways introducing BFAT carriages and it can be transported by Tatra based transporters being held by IA. also Sarvatra class of bridge has been inducted in to combat engineers with 70 tonne capacity ........
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  13. hellfire
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    hellfire SENIOR MEMBER

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    Why waste the time?

    please dont. had earlier stated lets get back to topic and not diverge ....


    Let's get something straight. I WASN'T THERE. Never said I was. Tang0 did.

    my reply was to tango, but you chose to reply on his behalf too I see .... and i thanked him for getting the thread back on course. i had mentioned earlier in my post reply to yours that the last lines are yours, for me the matter is over.

    I received intel dumps- INTSUMs, threat estimates, terrain analysis, and, finally, after-action reports. My unit was on orders to deploy to "the mother of all battles" once the first 10,000 or so dead G.I.s made it back to our horrified public.

    am sure you performed well as any officer of any armed forces in the world does, be it directly in line of fire or not, you played your part in the war effort and my hats off and salute to you for the same.....and this is not sarcasm but a respectful observation for a soldier doing his duty towards his country.

    Most of all I didn't need any of that to prove you wrong. Nor did I need to have served in the military or even have been alive then. Your presentation of events surrounding the "highway of death" and American civil war history were a gross distortion-almost laughably so.

    not so and i beg to differ. but lets agree not to agree shall we? and move on?


    Easily researched but you chose laziness over diligence and presumed the worst of our poor minds. And was easily proven wrong. You're not justifying much of anything with me at this point, sir.

    let it rest and get on with a meaninful discussion minding the fact that non-service members are also present


    As such, you were poorly served by your 160 I.Q and deserve my distrust and disdain until your discourse shows improvement.

    you are most welcome .....to have your perceptions
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  14. Super Falcon
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    Super Falcon ELITE MEMBER

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    hell fire seems like u have very good info on tanks i have one question for u i hope u answer them as a neutral dont think ur indian at the time u answer just answer what ur knowladge says to you and im eager to listen from u

    AL KHALID VS ARJUN Answer
    ALKHALID VS T90 Answer
    T80UD VS ARJUN Answer
    T80UD VS T90 Answer
  15. hellfire
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    hellfire SENIOR MEMBER

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    oh am all for neutrality

    am waiting for someone to open arjun alkhalid discussion thread ... no vs this or that for we cant be sure on the abilities till actual fight ...
    there was one thread opened by my fellow countryman but he put his foot into the mouth and got into PA bashing in intro itself ... am lookin for keen minded people to discuss ... not bash india or pakistan in discussion ...
    that is toooooo stereotypical
    shall be grateful if you open the thread and we can work the portion out in fair and objective manner ..... will await your call ....
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