Musharraf: Pakistan Exposed India's Military Weakness

Discussion in 'World Affairs' started by JF-17_Thunder, Jul 18, 2010.

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  1. RobbieS
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    RobbieS SENIOR MEMBER

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    Yeah, and because you said so? Get off your high horse. It is this kind of bravado and over-confidence in PA's abilities that caused considerable loss of face in '65 and '71. PA prided itself on its ability to win itself a short swift war, but everytime it tested itself, the results were far from satisfactory.
  2. WAQAS119
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    WAQAS119 SENIOR MEMBER

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    Everytime PA and IA came close to each other, results were extraordinary for PA, and infact shocking for IA thus on many occasions out of the fear of loosing battle IAF has been called upon by IA to counter PA.
  3. Oscar
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    Oscar SENIOR MODERATOR Staff Member

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    Actually, you are factually wrong..
    We had 50 or so weapons ready BEFORE the tests.
    Pakistan used regular troops.. posing as irregulars at first but as the situation grew more desperate.. they went in uniform.
    And Nawaz really did not have the full picture, he was really convinced of peace.. Mr musharrafs ploy was to give a rosy picture to him regarding a "few areas we can gain"
    IF BVR weapons decide the conlfict then the short lived Eritriea Ethopia war with Russian BVR's shows they made no difference, what made the difference was pilot training and close in weapons.
    A authoritative article exists as to how the PAF was kept out of the loop in this conflict.
    Get your facts from better sources.
  4. somebozo
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    somebozo ELITE MEMBER

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    Pakistan wanted to lure India into cross the IB and use that as a reason to use nuclear weapons. Musrhaff ordered steadfast assembly and delivery of war heads. India proved mature by not cross the IB. We were left dumb founded. Not futher excuses after that. Bad planning is bad planning after all. Even if Pakistan captured Kargil, it had no means to sustain its hold without nuke threat. Which would have invited worldwide condemnation and our annhilation as well.

    Inviting journalist for tea at some club only to have them capture you retreating in haste.. :yahoo::yahoo::yahoo::yahoo:

    Last edited: Jul 18, 2010
  5. KS
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    KS ELITE MEMBER

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    And may i ask for neutral/credible sources..?

    And i forgot to post this before... India wanted to paint Pakistan as an aggressor while India was a peace seeking nation that only defended and does not go on a offensive before the world nations (which it did sucessfully)and we didn cross the border because of that.


    It is not a fair analogy..i ll tel u why..

    The Fulcrums of the ErAF and the Flankers of the EtAF both were obsolete baseline models which are in no way equal to the MKIs or the Mirages or even the upgraded Fulcrums in the IAF.

    secondly u cannot possibly compare the pilot training courses of IAF and EtAF..

    And if u possibly hinted at saying the oft repeated notion of Pakistani pilots being way better than their Indian counterparts....then think again..ttimes have changed.


    Keeping PAF out of the war was one of the best decisions taken with the benefit of hindsight.I hope u agree with this.
  6. Oscar
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    Oscar SENIOR MODERATOR Staff Member

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    No neutral source.. I am the one in this case, heard this myself first hand from the top people...
    No m not repeating the oft repeated thing..Russian pilots flew the Su-27's and Ukrainians the Mig-29's..no Eritrean was involved.. which at that point in time were exactly the same baseline as the IAF Migs.
    Please dont give me "peace seeking" garlands.. we are not discussing national psychology here. Pakistan was an aggressor in that conflict, and yes keeping the PAF out was a bad decision. What if the war had gone really hot?.. without the PAF having any proper forewarning of it?..The PAF being kept out in the planning stages was the worst more and a deja vu in history.
  7. RobbieS
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    RobbieS SENIOR MEMBER

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    Of course, the surrender of 90,000 personnel was extraordinary. I would take that shock any day!

    Really? care to elaborate?
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  8. karan.1970
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    karan.1970 ELITE MEMBER

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    To the title... Musharraf is simply making excuses. Something you normally do when you lose out. Being a general, he should know that a miss is as good as a mile in such operations and there are no consolation prizes in a war...
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  9. mohd497
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    mohd497 FULL MEMBER

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    You said it yourself that pakistan was in better position. and also i have also heard it from many soldiers that we were in better position but winning in a battle doesnt mean everything nawaz must had its own reason to call back army did you hear musharaf criticizing about it.
    And those who say kargil was blunder yeah it was the plan that was a blunder what was navaz thinking attacking india and calling back army at the end time. Musharaf was ordered to proceed operation grand slam so he did as he was told
  10. blain2
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    blain2 SENIOR MODERATOR Staff Member

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    Delusional? Really? Pakistan's IB existed in both wings. Your side crossed and violated the Eastern Wing's IB at will. Lets not be selective by crying about violation of yours when your side shamelessly had no qualms about violating ours just as badly.

    I hate to say this but essentially this whole thread has been hijacked by either the Indians or the "anti-Mush" camp (I am not one to condone his mistakes but do realize that people are pulling all sorts on inane agendas into this threat as a motivation for what transpired).

    I have yet to see an analysis of why Kargil operations were undertaken on this thread (please don't post long articles that are thrown at each other ad-nauseam). It had nothing to do with the idiotic notion that the Americans were behind it or that Musharraf wanted to upstage Nawaz Sharif and bring about martial law and that too at the behest of the Americans (spare them..at least some of the times).

    Those looking to quote other Army personalities involved in this episode and who seemed to be upset at kargil need to realize that when operations don't go as planned, then everybody wants to be seen as the "nay sayer" and dissenter. There is hardly anyone who stands his ground and says the right thing when the house has fallen down. Our culture stinks at owning up and standing the ground. The same controversy about owning up is going on India with a chap being accused and then acquitted for getting surprised etc. Passing on the buck is a typical desi tactic.

    I do not want to go into the details of why this was undertaken aside from the fact that that interdiction of Kargil/Drass was seen as a counterweight to ongoing and periodic interdiction of the Neelum Valley on our side. Things had been left on the table in the times of Gen Karamat but Musharraf decided to take the gamble and do something about it. The mission was always planned as a tactical one, in the context of what went on locally along the LoC and up north in Siachen. Mistakes were indeed made, but why is this operation any worse or shameful for people than the one we conducted on Siachen? Was Siachen not garrisoned because we wanted to block the Indian ingress and to interdict their garrisoning?
    If someone tells me that Siachen is disputed, then what is LoC? Its definitely not IB as such there are differences and as opportunities come up, either side will try to take advantage and consolidate to gain an upper hand in the Kashmir region.

    Any which way you look at it, both sides have lost more people and material on the heights of Siachen than two Kargils combined so all this talk of singling out Kargil as unnecessary loss of lives by fellow Pakistanis and that of back-stabbing (by the Indians) is not grounded in facts.

    While I am saddened by the loss of life, I do not apologize for Kargil and don't think there is any need to. Both sides have a history of taking advantage because the Kashmir issue lingers. Our side tried to take the initiative when an opportunity came up. India has done the same at Siachen (lets not even bother with arguments about who went there first etc.) and certainly took the initiative in 1971. The Rann of Kutch affair was no different. Our side responded to the Indian ingress in the Rann area. So this is the military history of Pakistan and India. The other side certainly feels no shame over anything they have done militarily or clandestinely so why should Pakistan or Pakistanis?

    If people want reason to prevail then lets agree that all wars are bad. Lets not have them anymore by resolving our problems peacefully. However who has done that? Unfortunately neither of the two parties involved here.
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2010
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  11. blain2
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    blain2 SENIOR MODERATOR Staff Member

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    Its a shock no doubt, but one tempered with the reality that it was 45,000 regular troops, cut off from their support base and faced with over 300,000 regulars of the IA and Mukti Bahini irregulars who were an additional 70-100K in numbers. No air or naval support. Losing in such cases is a lesson and also an inspiration to not let that happen again Almighty willing.
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  12. ramu
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    ramu SENIOR MEMBER

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    Excuses again. But forget 1971, what about 1965. It was planned and executed by the Pakistan Army at their choice of time and place. Nobody was cut off from anybody but still the Tashkent agreement was more in favour of India than Pakistan after the ceasefire. In fact India gained by the blind patriotism and Marsian race theory.

    More recently Kargil, again at the time of Musharraf's liking and the place where he thought it could cause the maximum impact. Result. Zero.

    :cheers:
  13. blain2
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    blain2 SENIOR MODERATOR Staff Member

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  14. toxic_pus
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    toxic_pus SENIOR MEMBER

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    Major A.H.Amin claims to have heard this 'thousands of times'

    '....a myth was widely propagated in Pakistan that the Punjabi Muslims were the most martial race and the Pathan Muslims were the second most martial race. I may add that I heard this ridiculous and irrational myth thousands of times in the course of my 13 years service in Pakistan Army.'

    The Pakistan Army From 1965 to 1971

    Btw, the link provides a very interesting analysis of PA.

    Has the "supposed" threat to India from Pakistan receded after the 1971 war? Well I no longer see a Pakistani threat emanating from the east anymore.

    Has Kashmir been resolved? 1971 was not about Kashmir, remember? Although I must admit, Ms Gandhi made a blunder trusting some of his advisers and also Bhutto.
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2010
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  15. ramu
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    ramu SENIOR MEMBER

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