Madrassa reforms - Suggestions

[CriticalThought]

I never said that no change be made to the current schooling system and somehow still have them fulfill the role of madrassa.

Obviously it would require quite the overhaul of both the traditional schools/universities and the madrassas to merge them into one.

And spare me the lecture of the elitist money centered ways of private schools. U think madrassas are better?

Personal story: My family wasn't always well off. There were some very hard times. My dad when he was a kid(very young) used to attend a madrassa where he was taught how to read the Quran among the rest of the kids. Since he was poor, it fell upon him and a few other unfortunate kids(also poor) to clean and mop the floor among other duties. The kids who had wealthy parents "un ko Qaari Sahab godi mein bitha k sabaq parhatay thay"(quoting my dad here).

Another time where Qaari Sahab took some kids with him to some person's house where someone had died. He charged like 5 rupees per kid and the kids had to read the Quran(each one assigned a different chapter). My dad was given the 17th chapter whereas he was only learning the 3rd one in the madrassa. He was told to quietly read "Bismillah ar Rehman ar Rahim" repeatedly until sufficient time had passed to make it seem as if he finished reciting that chapter. The Qaari Sahab was only interested in how much money he can make.

The world is full of this greed. U will find it everywhere u look.

Please, is there any comparison between these amounts and the arm and leg which KGS will charge you? Or, actually forget KGS, try the Karachi American School

http://www.kas.edu.pk/html/adm-tuition1.htm

The point remains, trying to merge the Madressah system into the current educational system is educational apartheid, as a matter of fact, spiritual apartheid where you lock the doors of religion upon the poor people.

Prophet can show 'Mojeza'. Miracle is used interchangeably.

English is a poor language for Islamic discourse, but just to be very particular, can we please refrain from the interchangeable use? Thank you.

Don't you think there isn't priest-hood in Islam?

There is a level called 'Fana fillah'. These are not matters for you and me to discuss and it doesn't apply to ordinary people. I was giving you just an example of Tasawwuf. It will take us too far away from the original discussion.

If you want to see them in majority its different thing but matter of the fact is that they are not.

But if they were, how is anyone outside of it irrelevant. You don't believe in difference of opinion?

Right. Thank you for clarifying your position. No more needs to be said.

Your problem seems why is a doctor charging fee and mufti serving free. I have seen doctors serving free. Anyways mufti is paid through donations and doctor is paid through our tax money. Is there big difference?

Your problem is that you see everything from the lens of worldly concerns. I said, prove to me through Quran and Sunnah that in the eyes of Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'aala, a religious scholar and a doctor are equal in reward and respect.

I know the Hadith of palm tree is from Sahih Muslim and one is ought to accept it without any doubt.

I can renew my faith, what about you? Who is hell bent to prove that Prophet P.B.U.H had no worldly knowledge by cherry picking one Hadith, while the world knows he himself was a businessman practically.

Did I say (Ma'aaz Allah) that the Prophet Sallallahu 'Aalihi Wa Aalihi Wasallam had no worldly knowledge? Please do not twist my words. What I actually said:

We are encouraged to make independent inquiries regarding worldly affairs.

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/madrassa-reforms-suggestions.469163/page-20#ixzz4UbHR8Y4h

If anyone wants to use the Holy Quran for anything other than purifying the heart, increasing the Iman, gaining fear of Allah and the Day of Judgement, they need to contact valid religious scholars. Hazrat Sheikhul Hadith Maulana Zakariya Kandhalwi Rahimahullah has cited (I think) 17 branches of knowledge that you must master before you can make independent interpretation of the Holy Quran. And as I have said before, it takes 8 years 'Aalim course + 2 years Takhassus before someone is allowed to make that interpretation. You are welcome to contact religious scholars why this is so, but as I have elaborated previously through citing the Hadith, it is not the will of Holy Prophet Sallallahu 'Alaihi Wa Aalihi Wasallam that discussion of Holy Quran becomes common amongst us.

 

[Salik]

I recommend you read this @CriticalThought

http://www.tibbenabawi.org/

You surely know it already. Now please tell is it skill or divine knowledge??

What do you expect from Ashaab-e-Sufah, do they establish research laboratory when hardly ten people know reading and writing.

They were learning very basic things. See they didn't even compile the Quran or Hadith. It was done much later.

The evolution of knowledge in earlier Islamic society which you are missing is the developments happen during Abbasid period.

 

[CriticalThought]

I recommend you read this @CriticalThought

http://www.tibbenabawi.org/

You surely know it already. Now please tell is it skill or divine knowledge??

What do you expect from Ashaab-e-Sufah, do they establish research laboratory when hardly ten people know reading and writing.

They were learning very basic things. See they didn't even compile the Quran or Hadith. It was done much later.

The evolution of knowledge in earlier Islamic society which you are missing is the developments happen during Abbasid period.

So, apologies for bringing Tasawwuf into it again, but if you ever read an authentic discussion about curing people using a Wazeefa, you will realize that it is considered a trivialization of the auspicious Holy Quran and Adhkar that have been taught to us. The Mashaikh tell us, even when performing a Wazeefa, keep the meanings of the words and the Greatness of Allah in your heart. The worldly benefits are trivial side-effects, the real target is to reach Allah and obtain His Mercy.

There are many worldly benefits you can obtain from Quran and Sunnah, but the people who are elevated in the eyes of Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'aala are those who learn Taqwa, Iman, and A'amaal from it. Please, I fully encourage you, contact authentic religious scholars and they will Insha Allah guide you much better than a nobody like me. Thank you.

 

[Salik]

So, apologies for bringing Tasawwuf into it again, but if you ever read an authentic discussion about curing people using a Wazeefa, you will realize that it is considered a trivialization of the auspicious Holy Quran and Adhkar that have been taught to us. The Mashaikh tell us, even when performing a Wazeefa, keep the meanings of the words and the Greatness of Allah in your heart. The worldly benefits are trivial side-effects, the real target is to reach Allah and obtain His Mercy.

There are many worldly benefits you can obtain from Quran and Sunnah, but the people who are elevated in the eyes of Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'aala are those who learn Taqwa, Iman, and A'amaal from it. Please, I fully encourage you, contact authentic religious scholars and they will Insha Allah guide you much better than a nobody like me. Thank you.

Dude my post had two parts, you didn't address any of them.

Lets take first part here. Holy Prophet P.B.U.H acted as a doctor and introduced treatments i.e.

i. Water, as don't drink water in the end of meal.
ii. Injeer
iii. Hijama
iv. Camel Urine

Now my question is, this treatment is skill or divine knowledge??

 

[Salik]

This is why we cannot give an open invitation to all and sundry to start making interpretations of the Holy Quran. Doctors, Engineers, Philosophers have to refer to the Ulema to understand the rulings from the Holy Quran.

What guideline can Ulema provide to a scientist. If the scientist doesn't consult them his experiment will fail?

 

[Salik]

There is a level called 'Fana fillah'. These are not matters for you and me to discuss and it doesn't apply to ordinary people. I was giving you just an example of Tasawwuf. It will take us too far away from the original discussion.

Lets go little too far.

One who is in 'Fana fillah' he doesn't go to jungle. A person only knowingly adopts priest-hood. You are just promoting priest-hood in the name of 'Tassawwuf'.

 

[CriticalThought]

Lets go little too far.

One who is in 'Fana fillah' he doesn't go to jungle. A person only knowingly adopts priest-hood. You are just promoting priest-hood in the name of 'Tassawwuf'.

Last warning. Stop talking about things you don't know anything about, and stop twisting my words to derive meanings I never intended. I am NOT promoting anything, I gave you an example and I am saying stop the discussion there. If you keep pressing ahead, I will call the mods and leave you alone.

What guideline can Ulema provide to a scientist. If the scientist doesn't consult them his experiment will fail?

You get things like the Mu'tazila who 'have burdened rationality with a weight that it cannot bear' in the words of our religious scholars. Once some 'genius' starts independent interpretation, there is no knowing what he will cook up. You start from science and you can very well end up in meta-physics. Again, belaboring this point means you are looking for any and all ways to subvert established thinking.

Dude my post had two parts, you didn't address any of them.

Lets take first part here. Holy Prophet P.B.U.H acted as a doctor and introduced treatments i.e.

i. Water, as don't drink water in the end of meal.
ii. Injeer
iii. Hijama
iv. Camel Urine

Now my question is, this treatment is skill or divine knowledge??

Whatever knowledge Prophet Muhammad Sallallahu 'Alaihi Wa Aalihi Wasallam is Divine Knowledge. As long as someone limits himself to using such knowledge, he can actually earn rewards if in his heart he is doing this because of the love of the Prophet Sallallahu 'Alaihi Wa Aalihi Wasallam. But, as soon as he starts independent inquisition, he is now relying on his own skills and will make his skills sharper. From a religious perspective, he will not increase his knowledge.

In order to extract Divine Knowledge from Ahadith, you still need valid religious scholars who will tell you which Hadith is Saheeh etc. and also what is the real meaning of the Hadith.

 

[Salik]

Last warning. Stop talking about things you don't know anything about, and stop twisting my words to derive meanings I never intended. I am NOT promoting anything, I gave you an example and I am saying stop the discussion there. If you keep pressing ahead, I will call the mods and leave you alone.

Ok i don't ask too much. Can you provide the source of the 'true story' in which the person leaves to jungle and throws needle in the river etc. We'll check it ourselves.

You get things like the Mu'tazila who 'have burdened rationality with a weight that it cannot bear' in the words of our religious scholars. Once some 'genius' starts independent interpretation, there is no knowing what he will cook up. You start from science and you can very well end up in meta-physics. Again, belaboring this point means you are looking for any and all ways to subvert established thinking

Neither your 'religious scholars' explore science and meta physics from the Holy Quran themselves nor they help or let others do that. For you its burden, great!!

You wan't to make the Holy Quran merely a book of fiqh and fatwa. The Quran is a treasure of knowledge. To explore it one will have to cross the so called barrier of burden and 'extra' set by you.

Better you find a middle way, but you'll resort to Takfir and try to stop it happen.

 

[Asfandyar Bhittani]

Apart from madrassa reforms, we need mosque reforms. A teacher needs a degree to teach. A doctor needs a degree to practice. But no degree required to be a mullah or imam.

 

[Salik]

Whatever knowledge Prophet Muhammad Sallallahu 'Alaihi Wa Aalihi Wasallam is Divine Knowledge. As long as someone limits himself to using such knowledge, he can actually earn rewards if in his heart he is doing this because of the love of the Prophet Sallallahu 'Alaihi Wa Aalihi Wasallam. But, as soon as he starts independent inquisition, he is now relying on his own skills and will make his skills sharper. From a religious perspective, he will not increase his knowledge.

In order to extract Divine Knowledge from Ahadith, you still need valid religious scholars who will tell you which Hadith is Saheeh etc. and also what is the real meaning of the Hadith.

Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) himself practised medicine. If someone carries this practice ahead, one is doing divine work. Now in this process he will do personal inquisition just like Qiyaas. You think tutelage works only in your case. Don't you sound a hypocrite??

 

[Silverblaze]

Reformation of seminaries is an oxymoron. They see reformation as secularization. So talk of reforms is nonsensical to them.

There should be only one system of the education in the country. The system should be comprehensive and diverse enough that it caters for the needs of all, students are taught basic mannerism and etiquette in addition to literacy. The same system should cater for the needs of Muslim and non-Muslim students in terms of their religious needs. Muslim students can take optional courses like tajweed, Hifz-ul-Quran, fiqh and asool-e-fiqh, hadeeth, etc in addition to math and natural sciences, social studies and arts. The lectures on Islamic topic should be prepared in recorded forms by the best of the best scholars in the fields and played in the classrooms. While the students can ask their question by recording audio and video messages or sending emails and a panel of assistants helps the scholar answer in question on individual basis and FAQs. The approach can be adopted for non-Muslim students..so christians, hindus, liberals, libtards, atheists and Muslim student study in the same school and under the same roof but at the same time they are able to customise their academic path regardless of ethnic and economic backgrounds...no separate madrassahs and Coventry schools, no private grammar schools and no English vs Urdu medium debates, no FSc/ Matric vs O/A level arguments.


Close them down mindlessly and then you will witness the unprecedented dam-a-dam mast Qalandar that libtards will fly out of the country without the airplanes...and people will say "Oh see this libtard gotta jet" .

While the long term solution is the improve the education system of the country and make it truly universal.

totally disagree. reformation under this system is rejected by seminaries. The very reason for seminaries was the negation of what they see "secularization" of education. Teaching natural sciences and arts to seminary students is going to bring an eternal conflict. They very reason madrasas were set up to exclude these things. Even Math will be disputed, accounting will be criticized for being interest based. The western books on various subjects and research papers that coincide with even slightest of religious beliefs will be excluded and become a source of conflict.

'How can an islamic nizam be jumbled up with kufr ' as they say.

Most of the comments on this thread are basically not so useful.. of liberals and Indians.. who have no stake in the country or understanding of the sensitivity of the issue.

Madrassah was a temporary or an alternative education system that was created by Muslims of subcontinent after the take over by Britishers and introduction of the Machiavellian education system that left no place for religious education especially Islamic education. Thus Muslim resorted to create a separate education system where their children could learn about the religion..however the fundamental mistake rather blunder they committed was to dismiss the secular part of the education like mathematics and natural sciences etc and thus Muslim parents were forced to send their children to both the public schools and madrassah to keep the balance and thus madrassah were relegated to the role complementary schools instead of an alternative system.

In principle, this division should have ended with the creation of a separate country for Muslim i.e. Pakistan, however the newly founded state did not embark upon any sort of reforms especially after the demise of the founding fathers...everything fell under control of the corrupt and liberal elite that was hell bent upon dividing the masses on different lines so as to remain in power..they exploited the education system and thus multiple parallel systems came into being in addition to madrassah and public schools namely; urdu medium, english medium, sindhi medium, elite schools and colleges, conventry schools, FSc and A level..,ooh my goodness..and all these different schools are dividing the nation and their graduates are totally out of synch from each other and they as apart in their thoughts as Africans and south Americans or Amazonian.

However to solve this issue, govt should tackle as the problem of connecting two different gauge rail tracks. Now to connect them, both need to be converted to some compatible dimensions. Thus the govt or public school should started educating more and more high quality religious content through the use of multimedia and IT while the madrassahs should start increasing the proportion of the secular content i.e. math physics, etc other science, IT etc with the goal of becoming equivalent to any elite school in the country and abroad. Govt should assist the madrassah in the implementation of this system in addition to providing a legal framework, a timeline / schedule to implement these reforms in stepwise but quantifiable manner. It may take between 5 years to a decade but the solution will be evolutionary and a great reconciliation between the two systems and avoid any collision.

Was President Zia liberal? Is his poodle nawaz shareef liberal. Was MMA liberal? Liberal fascism is totally different and is among the dirtiest of ideologies out there.

Now the aforementioned muslim warriors have had immense power and they could not even reverse the worst feudal system of the gora so what else is left to talk about. Great to see these defenders of islam siding with the worst corrupt feudals in history.

They very reason madrasas were built was the aversion to english language and other subjects that were thought to propagate western ideas. Slightest of modernization was treated as unislamic. A modern example of such treatment is criticism of Sir Syed Ahmed Khan.

The real problem with todays madrassas is that they cannot get over the fact that Quaid clearly and emphatically said that Pakistan will not ruled by priests with a divine mission in other words no theocracy. This bothers them as this is what they stand for. That is why many of them disliked the Quaid.

So, apologies for bringing Tasawwuf into it again, but if you ever read an authentic discussion about curing people using a Wazeefa, you will realize that it is considered a trivialization of the auspicious Holy Quran and Adhkar that have been taught to us. The Mashaikh tell us, even when performing a Wazeefa, keep the meanings of the words and the Greatness of Allah in your heart. The worldly benefits are trivial side-effects, the real target is to reach Allah and obtain His Mercy.

There are many worldly benefits you can obtain from Quran and Sunnah, but the people who are elevated in the eyes of Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'aala are those who learn Taqwa, Iman, and A'amaal from it. Please, I fully encourage you, contact authentic religious scholars and they will Insha Allah guide you much better than a nobody like me. Thank you.

Regarding the term trivialization - it is highly condemnable to use it while describing parts of the Holy book.

On a side note - Did the mashaik tell you that living in a secular country (Dar ul Kufr) and obeying its secular laws is a gross violation of islamic principles.

 

[Manidabest]

religious madrassas and seminaries should be banned in Pakistan... all the gov schools shud b handed over to provincial governments and each provincial government should have its own educational board and they should come up with uptodate latest curriculum and also include arabic language, Quran & Hadiths and ethics as subjects.... all the educational charity funds that goes to madrassas and ngos should b controlled by federal gov and then the federal gov shud distribute it equally among all the provinces simple .........and provincial government should also form an investment arm for the gov schools under them soo that will make our schools self sufficient in the future

 

[CriticalThought]

Dude my post had two parts, you didn't address any of them.

Lets take first part here. Holy Prophet P.B.U.H acted as a doctor and introduced treatments i.e.

i. Water, as don't drink water in the end of meal.
ii. Injeer
iii. Hijama
iv. Camel Urine

Now my question is, this treatment is skill or divine knowledge??

So you have been asking a lot of questions and it just struck me that I am missing the real semantics of your Inquisition. So I want to be specific. In that list above, how do you propose a doctor should utilize camel urine in treatment based on Divine Knowledge?

 

[Salik]

So you have been asking a lot of questions and it just struck me that I am missing the real semantics of your Inquisition. So I want to be specific. In that list above, how do you propose a doctor should utilize camel urine in treatment based on Divine Knowledge?

Doctor will use his qiyaas. As i said.

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If you don't provide the source of 'true story' i will report you @CriticalThought

 

[CriticalThought]

Doctor will use his qiyaas. As i said.

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If you don't provide the source of 'true story' i will report you @CriticalThought

You can try whatever you want.

Now, can you give me an actual example of this 'Qiyas'? Has anyone whom you consider authentic been able to perform this Qiyas regarding Camel Urine or is this some tall dream you have?