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Madrassa reforms - Suggestions

At this point you can't hide behind 'trying to learn' and asking 'innocent questions'. What are you trying to achieve? What's your agenda in trying to appoint universities as the centres of Islamic learning?
I'm not hiding behind anything. I'm simply proposing a centralized system of education for ALL fields of studies. It is u who keeps brining up irrelevant points so sure of the fact that it is not going to work.
 
There is no such thing as being 'Muttaqi' enough. Taqwa itself is a lifelong journey. You are displaying ignorance of everything from Tassawwuf, Tareeqat, to even basic religious observance and piety. I advise you to go look up the definition of a 'Mulhid'.

You better leave Tassawwuf, they don't do takfir so easily the way you are doing.

Taqwa is SOP of life right. So do every field of life. Doctors, engineers, builders they all have their SOPs. It doesn't mean their SOPs are not compatible with basic SOP of life.

What am i not digesting is that the Quran is only book of mufti and not book of doctor, engineer and philosopher and whatever they're doing is not mentioned in the Quran.
 
You better leave Tassawwuf, they don't do takfir so easily the way you are doing.

Taqwa is SOP of life right. So do every field of life. Doctors, engineers, builders they all have their SOPs. It doesn't mean their SOPs are not compatible with basic SOP of life.

What am i not digesting is that the Quran is only book of mufti and not book of doctor, engineer and philosopher and whatever they're doing is not mentioned in the Quran.

True story: A Muslim ruler turned away from worldly dealings and went into the jungle. After a while, a group of people went to him to beg him to return. At that time he was sitting by a river sewing something with a needle. He dropped the needle into the water and then pointed his fingers at the river. At once, hundreds of fish appeared bearing golden needles in him mouth.

This is Tasawwuf. Some people who are considered illiterate and misguided by our scholars have mixed irrelevant concepts into it. Hazrat Hakeemul Ummat Maulana Ashraf Ali Thanvi Rahimahullah is credited with separating out the wrong concepts and re-establishing Tasawwuf along solid principles derived from Quran and Sunnah. And he is very, very particular about safeguarding the theological and ideological boundaries of Islam from Zindiqeen and Mulhideen.

Religion doesn't come solely from the Holy Quran. It comes from Quran and Sunnah. Both sources provide instructions related to various facets of life. Now, reading the Holy Quran inspires fear of Allah and His love. In this regard, everyone can benefit from the Holy Quran. But in order to deduce rulings, one has to be a religious scholar. From Fazail-e-Amaal, sub-book Fazail-e-Tableegh, Ch 6 'Respect for Learning and the Learned'

The. Holy Prophet (Sallallaho alaihe wasallam) has also said: "I fear particularly for three shortcomings in my followers. First, due to increasing worldly benefits and achievements, they will envy one another; second,. discussion of the Holy Qur'an will become so common that even the ignorant will claim that they know the meanings of the Holy Qur'an, although many meanings are such that cannot be understood by anyone except the well versed scholars of that Book, who say: "We have a firm faith in it, and that. it is from Allah", so how much more careful should be the common people; third, the religious scholars will be neglected and will not be patronized properly"
(Targheeb)

This is why we cannot give an open invitation to all and sundry to start making interpretations of the Holy Quran. Doctors, Engineers, Philosophers have to refer to the Ulema to understand the rulings from the Holy Quran.

Finally consider the following from Sahih Muslim

It was narrated from Anas that the Prophet passed by some people who were pollinating (palm trees) and said: "If you do not do it, it may be better." The trees produced bad dates, then he passed by them and said: "What is the matter with your palm trees?" They said: "You said such-and-such." He said: "You know better about your worldly affairs."

We are encouraged to make independent inquiries regarding worldly affairs. But where something has been decreed by Allah and His Prophet Sallallahu 'Alaihi Wa Aalihi Wasallam, we leave aside logic and experimentation and follow the Divine Guidance.

I'm not hiding behind anything. I'm simply proposing a centralized system of education for ALL fields of studies. It is u who keeps brining up irrelevant points so sure of the fact that it is not going to work.

But why are you proposing this and what do you get out of it?

Btw @CriticalThought every Ummati has direct link with Prophet Muhammad P.B.U.H. Tutelage isn't hard and fast rule.

The spiritual link is not the same as getting the inheritance of the Prophet Sallallahu 'Alaihi Wa Aalihi Wasallam which is the sole domain of religious scholars.
 
True story: A Muslim ruler turned away from worldly dealings and went into the jungle. After a while, a group of people went to him to beg him to return. At that time he was sitting by a river sewing something with a needle. He dropped the needle into the water and then pointed his fingers at the river. At once, hundreds of fish appeared bearing golden needles in him mouth.

This is Tasawwuf. Some people who are considered illiterate and misguided by our scholars have mixed irrelevant concepts into it. Hazrat Hakeemul Ummat Maulana Ashraf Ali Thanvi Rahimahullah is credited with separating out the wrong concepts and re-establishing Tasawwuf along solid principles derived from Quran and Sunnah. And he is very, very particular about safeguarding the theological and ideological boundaries of Islam from Zindiqeen and Mulhideen.

Religion doesn't come solely from the Holy Quran. It comes from Quran and Sunnah. Both sources provide instructions related to various facets of life. Now, reading the Holy Quran inspires fear of Allah and His love. In this regard, everyone can benefit from the Holy Quran. But in order to deduce rulings, one has to be a religious scholar. From Fazail-e-Amaal, sub-book Fazail-e-Tableegh, Ch 6 'Respect for Learning and the Learned'


This is why we cannot give an open invitation to all and sundry to start making interpretations of the Holy Quran. Doctors, Engineers, Philosophers have to refer to the Ulema to understand the rulings from the Holy Quran.

Finally consider the following from Sahih Muslim


We are encouraged to make independent inquiries regarding worldly affairs. But where something has been decreed by Allah and His Prophet Sallallahu 'Alaihi Wa Aalihi Wasallam, we leave aside logic and experimentation and follow the Divine Guidance.

True story: He went to jungle and adopted priest-hood and broke the law. His miracle has no value!!

Secondly whatever your scholars think, they are asked to respect the opinion of majority scholars.

I am not asking a doctor or engineer to deduce rules from the Holy Quran. Don't know what are you thinking.

If a mufti has a medical problem he would go to a doctor. A doctor can't do the job of a mufti and issue a fatwa. Both have their field of expertise. But you are demoting one and promoting the other.

If they are doing their job rightly they are equal in the eyes of God. Plus the Quran and Hadith have several examples that can be helpful in say medical research (Again i am NOT asking to deduce the rules of fiqh).

That said, the Prophet P.B.U.H was born and raised in Arab. How did he not know about the palm trees uptill the age of 40? Reporting of this Hadith raises question marks. The Prophet P.B.U.H knew the economics thats why he gave axe to a person and said to work and earn instead of begging.
 
True story: He went to jungle and adopted priest-hood and broke the law. His miracle has no value!!

Only a Prophet can show a miracle. This is termed a 'Kiramat'. Which law did he break?

Secondly whatever your scholars think, they are asked to respect the opinion of majority scholars.

The ahl-e-sunnat wa-al jama'aah ARE the majority of scholars. Anyone outside this school of thought has no relevance.

I am not asking a doctor or engineer to deduce rules from the Holy Quran. Don't know what are you thinking.

If a mufti has a medical problem he would go to a doctor. A doctor can't do the job of a mufti and issue a fatwa. Both have their field of expertise. But you are demoting one and promoting the other.

If they are doing their job rightly they are equal in the eyes of God.

Please show through Quran and Sunnah that their respect and their rewards are equal in the eyes of Allah the Almighty. Some people twist the meanings of Quran and Sunnah and change them from what has been established for thousands of years. Many times it helps their worldly aims and ambitions. Such people are regularly pointed out and excluded from the mainstream.

Plus the Quran and Hadith have several examples that can be helpful in say medical research (Again i am NOT asking to deduce the rules of fiqh).

That said, the Prophet P.B.U.H was born and raised in Arab. How did he not know about the palm trees uptill the age of 40? Reporting of this Hadith raises question marks. The Prophet P.B.U.H knew the economics thats why he gave axe to a person and said to work and earn instead of begging.

Do you have knowledge of Hadith, its authenticity, the knowledge of narrators? If not, then you must now go to religious scholars instead of raising doubts about a Hadith.

And while you are at it, look up the definition of Zindeeq. Just to be very clear, how about you look it up and then post it here so we all know you understand what a Zindeeq is.
 
But why are you proposing this and what do you get out of it?
I'm proposing it bcuz that's what the thread is about...Madrassa reforms...and I think it would be great to have one centralized institution for education for ALL disciplines including religious studies.

Also I don't get anything out of it...why would u think that somehow I would get anything out of it?

And I don't understand ur opposition to it. If the religious scholars set the curriculum and teach at a school just as they do in a Madrassa then what makes it so bad that u can't accept it?
 
I'm proposing it bcuz that's what the thread is about...Madrassa reforms...and I think it would be great to have one centralized institution for education for ALL disciplines including religious studies.

Also I don't get anything out of it...why would u think that somehow I would get anything out of it?

And I don't understand ur opposition to it. If the religious scholars set the curriculum and teach at a school just as they do in a Madrassa then what makes it so bad that u can't accept it?

Because in recent years, there is an entire effort led by the likes of Pervez Hoodhbhoy to try and change the curriculum of Madressahs, to register them, and in general arm twist them into submission. In this environment, when you try to fix something that ain't broke, you will be questioned about your motives. So you want to do this 'just because it would be great'?
 
Because in recent years, there is an entire effort led by the likes of Pervez Hoodhbhoy to try and change the curriculum of Madressahs, to register them, and in general arm twist them into submission. In this environment, when you try to fix something that ain't broke, you will be questioned about your motives. So you want to do this 'just because it would be great'?
I'm not aware of Pervez Hoodhbhoy's stuff. This is my personal view bcuz I think schools/universities can do a comparable job to madrassas in teaching religious studies.

Something doesn't have to be broken for it to be improved upon. The steam engine wasn't broken and worked well for what it was designed to do...yet we moved past that with better engines.

Let me give u an example. In US we use non SI units such as lbs and miles alongside SI units like Kg and Km. Many ppl here propose of only having SI units. It doesn't mean that these non SI units are broken. It just means that SI units have been accepted as a standard around the world and by adopting those it would make life much simpler.

In any case I'm done arguing with u. U seem to be taking it personally and are offended. I have explained enough. Don't quote me again.
 
I'm not aware of Pervez Hoodhbhoy's stuff. This is my personal view bcuz I think schools/universities can do a comparable job to madrassas in teaching religious studies.

Something doesn't have to be broken for it to be improved upon. The steam engine wasn't broken and worked well for what it was designed to do...yet we moved past that with better engines.

Let me give u an example. In US we use non SI units such as lbs and miles alongside SI units like Kg and Km. Many ppl here propose of only having SI units. It doesn't mean that these non SI units are broken. It just means that SI units have been accepted as a standard around the world and by adopting those it would make life much simpler.

In any case I'm done arguing with u. U seem to be taking it personally and are offended. I have explained enough. Don't quote me again.

Apologies but allow one last response. The reason why the current Madressah system actually should NOT be changed is that it follows the pattern set by the Prophet Sallallahu 'Alaihi Wa Aalihi Wasallam and the Companions May Allah be Pleased with them.

1. In order to acquire religious education, you have to commit yourself fulltime.
2. The finances of the Madressah are met from the Alms given by people.

The universities and schools have an elitist hierarchy, where the best ones charge the most money and are in private sector. This would lock out poor people from attaining the best religious education. Before we even begin to talk about merging the two systems, you need to first solve the problem of equitable access to the system. Otherwise you are proposing an educational apartheid against the poor.
 
Apologies but allow one last response. The reason why the current Madressah system actually should NOT be changed is that it follows the pattern set by the Prophet Sallallahu 'Alaihi Wa Aalihi Wasallam and the Companions May Allah be Pleased with them.

1. In order to acquire religious education, you have to commit yourself fulltime.
2. The finances of the Madressah are met from the Alms given by people.

The universities and schools have an elitist hierarchy, where the best ones charge the most money and are in private sector. This would lock out poor people from attaining the best religious education. Before we even begin to talk about merging the two systems, you need to first solve the problem of equitable access to the system. Otherwise you are proposing an educational apartheid against the poor.
I never said that no change be made to the current schooling system and somehow still have them fulfill the role of madrassa.

Obviously it would require quite the overhaul of both the traditional schools/universities and the madrassas to merge them into one.

And spare me the lecture of the elitist money centered ways of private schools. U think madrassas are better?

Personal story: My family wasn't always well off. There were some very hard times. My dad when he was a kid(very young) used to attend a madrassa where he was taught how to read the Quran among the rest of the kids. Since he was poor, it fell upon him and a few other unfortunate kids(also poor) to clean and mop the floor among other duties. The kids who had wealthy parents "un ko Qaari Sahab godi mein bitha k sabaq parhatay thay"(quoting my dad here).

Another time where Qaari Sahab took some kids with him to some person's house where someone had died. He charged like 5 rupees per kid and the kids had to read the Quran(each one assigned a different chapter). My dad was given the 17th chapter whereas he was only learning the 3rd one in the madrassa. He was told to quietly read "Bismillah ar Rehman ar Rahim" repeatedly until sufficient time had passed to make it seem as if he finished reciting that chapter. The Qaari Sahab was only interested in how much money he can make.

The world is full of this greed. U will find it everywhere u look.
 
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I never said that no change be made to the current schooling system and somehow still have them fulfill the role of madrassa.

Obviously it would require quite the overhaul of both the traditional schools/universities and the madrassas to merge them into one.

Thank you. So I will now wait for the complete revamp of such elitist institutions as Kinnaird College, Beacon House, KGS, Froebels, LUMS etc etc. Good luck, Jim. This briefcase will self-destruct in 10 seconds.

:pop::pop::pop::pop::pop:
 
Only a Prophet can show a miracle. This is termed a 'Kiramat'. Which law did he break?

Prophet can show 'Mojeza'. Miracle is used interchangeably.

Don't you think there isn't priest-hood in Islam?


The ahl-e-sunnat wa-al jama'aah ARE the majority of scholars. Anyone outside this school of thought has no relevance.

If you want to see them in majority its different thing but matter of the fact is that they are not.

But if they were, how is anyone outside of it irrelevant. You don't believe in difference of opinion?


Please show through Quran and Sunnah that their respect and their rewards are equal in the eyes of Allah the Almighty. Some people twist the meanings of Quran and Sunnah and change them from what has been established for thousands of years. Many times it helps their worldly aims and ambitions. Such people are regularly pointed out and excluded from the mainstream.

Your problem seems why is a doctor charging fee and mufti serving free. I have seen doctors serving free. Anyways mufti is paid through donations and doctor is paid through our tax money. Is there big difference?


Do you have knowledge of Hadith, its authenticity, the knowledge of narrators? If not, then you must now go to religious scholars instead of raising doubts about a Hadith.

And while you are at it, look up the definition of Zindeeq. Just to be very clear, how about you look it up and then post it here so we all know you understand what a Zindeeq is.

I know the Hadith of palm tree is from Sahih Muslim and one is ought to accept it without any doubt.

I can renew my faith, what about you? Who is hell bent to prove that Prophet P.B.U.H had no worldly knowledge by cherry picking one Hadith, while the world knows he himself was a businessman practically.
 
@Salik

Hazrat Muhammad (Peace be upon him) was / is messenger of ALLAH ............... using word Prophet for him well........
 
Madrassa students are far better than university/college students
where at the name of politics students beat their teachers
in universities coeducation is destroying the societies

what medical colleges are teaching students

what these young doctors are doing in punjab at the name of so called structures reforms
closing the OPD services

madrassa are the forts of Islam & Pakistan
may be there some madrassa who are spreading terrorism
but why govt is not telling there name of '' SOME'' madrassa
 

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