Madrassa reforms - Suggestions

[CriticalThought]

Now i know why do you people judge others so easily. Others are doing just a skill job and you are doing 'real' learning. Anyways God bless you.

Don't you see a mufti is also doing a skill job, extracting rules from the Quran with the help of Hadith, Ijmaa and Qiyaas. Basic hygiene and mannerism everyone can learn, it isn't a big science.

You are infact limiting the role of the Holy Quran. A mufti can extract the rules of his field, so does a scientist, he can extract info regarding physiology, cosmos, micro biology, in short any field from the Holy Quran. But you are not ready to accomodate a scientist in your madrassa with that intention.

Thanks for raising this discussion. It is time for some maths.

All of scientific theory can be derived by a computer starting with basic axioms. In the case of mathematics they are called peano's axioms.

There is a branch of science called computational ethics. You need to study it to understand how ethical it would be to unleash AI upon the masses. On the mobile now, but later I will find and post a link to the IEEE article that describes the problems.

Divine knowledge is something which you cannot derive using a computer, or if humanity were to be left to its own devices, we would make too many horrific mistakes.

 

[Cookie Monster]

What is being proposed here as a reform is along the lines of setting up central administration that can decide a curriculum and streamline it across all the madrassas etc. Thus making them somewhat like traditional schools...so why not just have traditional schools ONLY?

 

[Salik]

Thanks for raising this discussion. It is time for some maths.

All of scientific theory can be derived by a computer starting with basic axioms. In the case of mathematics they are called peano's axioms.

There is a branch of science called computational ethics. You need to study it to understand how ethical it would be to unleash AI upon the masses. On the mobile now, but later I will find and post a link to the IEEE article that describes the problems.

Divine knowledge is something which you cannot derive using a computer, or if humanity were to be left to its own devices, we would make too many horrific mistakes.

Instead i am connecting everyone to the Holy Quran. You my dear think only a mufti can extract knowledge from this Book.

If i have lost a needle that too i would search from the Quran.

How can you say scientics can't benefit from this Book for their fields. "The Sun and the Moon are the signs of Allah", this alone Ayah is enough to establish an observatory.

 

[CriticalThought]

Instead i am connecting everyone to the Holy Quran. You my dear think only a mufti can extract knowledge from this Book.

If i have lost a needle that too i would search from the Quran.

How can you say scientics can't benefit from this Book for their fields. "The Sun and the Moon are the signs of Allah", this alone Ayah is enough to establish an observatory.

Oh you can derive many benefits from the Holy Quran. For example, the Sahabah May Allah be Pleased with them cured people using the Holy Quran. But the main purpose is revealed at the very beginning. In Surah Fatiha you pray for Guidance to the straight path. And then the Holy Quran opens with the statement that it is Hidaya for Muttaqeen. Those who believe in the Unseen, establish Salah, and spend from what Allah has Given them. And those who believe both in what has been revealed upon the Holy Prophet Sallallahu 'Alaihi Wa Aalihi Wasallam and what has been revealed before him. And those who have staunch belief in the Day of Judgement. Belief has nothing to do with science. Science is about making hypotheses and proving them right or wrong using practical evidence. The main benefit of the book can only be derived by certain people and the Madressahs are producing those people.

Remember that the Holy Quran is NOT about becoming Muslim ab initio. That is, you start from being non-Muslim or having no knowledge, read the Holy Quran and you become guided. Because without knowledge of Hadith, you cannot even establish Salah because the method of Salah is not present in the Holy Quran. Islam started from the Divine Guidance given to the Holy Prophet Sallallahu 'Alaihi Wa Aalihi Wasallam, is passed from heart to heart, and our Madressahs today are the trustees of this Divine Knowledge.

There is a long history of non-Muslims trying to pervert the beautiful face of our religion, and those who try to pervert it become readily evident from their lame apologetic arguments. The only fool themselves.

Since you are an adult Muslim (I presume) I find it disconcerting I have to give this explanation to you. It's the explanation we need to give to misguided people who are affected by the poisonous propaganda bring spread by agents of the enemies of Islam

What is being proposed here as a reform is along the lines of setting up central administration that can decide a curriculum and streamline it across all the madrassas etc. Thus making them somewhat like traditional schools...so why not just have traditional schools ONLY?

Because Dars-e-Nizami is a specialist course.

 

[Salik]

Oh you can derive many benefits from the Holy Quran. For example, the Sahabah May Allah be Pleased with them cured people using the Holy Quran. But the main purpose is revealed at the very beginning. In Surah Fatiha you pray for Guidance to the straight path. And then the Holy Quran opens with the statement that it is Hidaya for Muttaqeen. Those who believe in the Unseen, establish Salah, and spend from what Allah has Given them. And those who believe both in what has been revealed upon the Holy Prophet Sallallahu 'Alaihi Wa Aalihi Wasallam and what has been revealed before him. And those who have staunch belief in the Day of Judgement. Belief has nothing to do with science. Science is about making hypotheses and proving them right or wrong using practical evidence. The main benefit of the book can only be derived by certain people and the Madressahs are producing those people.

Remember that the Holy Quran is NOT about becoming Muslim ab initio. That is, you start from being non-Muslim or having no knowledge, read the Holy Quran and you become guided. Because without knowledge of Hadith, you cannot even establish Salah because the method of Salah is not present in the Holy Quran. Islam started from the Divine Guidance given to the Holy Prophet Sallallahu 'Alaihi Wa Aalihi Wasallam, is passed from heart to heart, and our Madressahs today are the trustees of this Divine Knowledge.

There is a long history of non-Muslims trying to pervert the beautiful face of our religion, and those who try to pervert it become readily evident from their lame apologetic arguments. The only fool themselves.

Since you are an adult Muslim (I presume) I find it disconcerting I have to give this explanation to you. It's the explanation we need to give to misguided people who are affected by the poisonous propaganda bring spread by agents of the enemies of Islam

So curing the people using the Quran is not guidance? I am amazed by your logic. Knowledge died the day you separated belief and science. The Quran offers more than hypotheses. It talks about clear cut and bright SIGNS.

You people fall like a blind, excuse me!! When i say i find EVERYTHING in the Quran it automatically means i will consult Hadith and will take due course.

Being a Muttaqi is just beginning of the journey. It is first step but you ended your journey in the very first step. Go and explore the world after learning basic manners. But for you it is just extra. This is major gulf, you have to fill it please.

 

[Cookie Monster]

Oh you can derive many benefits from the Holy Quran. For example, the Sahabah May Allah be Pleased with them cured people using the Holy Quran. But the main purpose is revealed at the very beginning. In Surah Fatiha you pray for Guidance to the straight path. And then the Holy Quran opens with the statement that it is Hidaya for Muttaqeen. Those who believe in the Unseen, establish Salah, and spend from what Allah has Given them. And those who believe both in what has been revealed upon the Holy Prophet Sallallahu 'Alaihi Wa Aalihi Wasallam and what has been revealed before him. And those who have staunch belief in the Day of Judgement. Belief has nothing to do with science. Science is about making hypotheses and proving them right or wrong using practical evidence. The main benefit of the book can only be derived by certain people and the Madressahs are producing those people.

Remember that the Holy Quran is NOT about becoming Muslim ab initio. That is, you start from being non-Muslim or having no knowledge, read the Holy Quran and you become guided. Because without knowledge of Hadith, you cannot even establish Salah because the method of Salah is not present in the Holy Quran. Islam started from the Divine Guidance given to the Holy Prophet Sallallahu 'Alaihi Wa Aalihi Wasallam, is passed from heart to heart, and our Madressahs today are the trustees of this Divine Knowledge.

There is a long history of non-Muslims trying to pervert the beautiful face of our religion, and those who try to pervert it become readily evident from their lame apologetic arguments. The only fool themselves.

Since you are an adult Muslim (I presume) I find it disconcerting I have to give this explanation to you. It's the explanation we need to give to misguided people who are affected by the poisonous propaganda bring spread by agents of the enemies of Islam



Because Dars-e-Nizami is a specialist course.

I just proposed that no need to have two systems running side by side and complicating things, where one can do the job more adequately. Tell me can traditional schools not have Islamic curriculum? Why can't u take non religious education(math/science/arts/etc) along with religious education?

Then after a student has some basic high school education, he/she can have more focus on Islamic studies in college and choose it as a major.

Why must Islamic studies be separated from other forms of knowledge. One has to live in this world while practising Islam. How can a mufti guide people in the matter of how interest is Haram when the Mufti doesn't even know the concept? For a Mufti to guide ppl in banking for example the Mufti needs to major in that respective field to have a thorough understanding of it along with having a great knowledge of Islam to be able to guide ppl properly.

 

[CriticalThought]

I just proposed that no need to have two systems running side by side and complicating things, where one can do the job more adequately. Tell me can traditional schools not have Islamic curriculum? Why can't u take non religious education(math/science/arts/etc) along with religious education?

Then after a student has some basic high school education, he/she can have more focus on Islamic studies in college and choose it as a major.

Why must Islamic studies be separated from other forms of knowledge. One has to live in this world while practising Islam. How can a mufti guide people in the matter of how interest is Haram when the Mufti doesn't even know the concept? For a Mufti to guide ppl in banking for example the Mufti needs to major in that respective field to have a thorough understanding of it along with having a great knowledge of Islam to be able to guide ppl properly.

Sorry bhai but you made factual errors there. The definition of interest is available from the Ahadith of Prophet Muhammad Sallallahi 'Alaihi Wa Aalihi Wasallam. And the Muftis know this stuff better than many financial analyst. I know because I have obtained fatwas I'm this regard.

The way they work is as follows. For any modern day problem, if it is a problem that is previously unencounteted, they ask the person to submit a written, detailed question, explaining concepts and technical jargon. Then, they will go and read themselves to further familiarize themselves with the domain. In case some other valid scholar is known to have specialization in the area, they will contact that scholar. Etc. See, what frustrates me is you show complete lack of knowledge how the system actually works. And then you try to talk about changing the system. There is a degree of derision implicit in the way the you consider Muftis to be completely unable to face modern challenges. BELIEVE ME. If some modern day question comes which they are unable to answer, they will be the first to acquire the knowledge. You need to put some trust in them as well.

So curing the people using the Quran is not guidance? I am amazed by your logic. Knowledge died the day you separated belief and science. The Quran offers more than hypotheses. It talks about clear cut and bright SIGNS.

You people fall like a blind, excuse me!! When i say i find EVERYTHING in the Quran it automatically means i will consult Hadith and will take due course.

Being a Muttaqi is just beginning of the journey. It is first step but you ended your journey in the very first step. Go and explore the world after learning basic manners. But for you it is just extra. This is major gulf, you have to fill it please.

There is no such thing as being 'Muttaqi' enough. Taqwa itself is a lifelong journey. You are displaying ignorance of everything from Tassawwuf, Tareeqat, to even basic religious observance and piety. I advise you to go look up the definition of a 'Mulhid'.

 

[Cookie Monster]

Sorry bhai but you made factual errors there. The definition of interest is available from the Ahadith of Prophet Muhammad Sallallahi 'Alaihi Wa Aalihi Wasallam. And the Muftis know this stuff better than many financial analyst. I know because I have obtained fatwas I'm this regard.

The way they work is as follows. For any modern day problem, if it is a problem that is previously unencounteted, they ask the person to submit a written, detailed question, explaining concepts and technical jargon. Then, they will go and read themselves to further familiarize themselves with the domain. In case some other valid scholar is known to have specialization in the area, they will contact that scholar. Etc. See, what frustrates me is you show complete lack of knowledge how the system actually works. And then you try to talk about changing the system. There is a degree of derision implicit in the way the you consider Muftis to be completely unable to face modern challenges. BELIEVE ME. If some modern day question comes which they are unable to answer, they will be the first to acquire the knowledge. You need to put some trust in them as well

Well u r getting frustrated for no reason. U think I'm attacking Madrassas and Muftis. Why feeling so insecure? I never said that Muftis are ignorant and misguided. I hold great respect towards our religious scholars. So quit making assumptions. The interest thing I brought up was just an example to illustrate a point. I wasn't saying that Muftis are ignorant of it.

I'm merely proposing that traditional schools take over the function of madrassas and offer Islamic education side by side with other courses. What's wrong with that? Does educating a student in Quran in a madrassa somehow make him/her better as compared to if that same education was given in a school?

As for my comment about Muftis majoring in other fields along with detailed study of Islam...what's wrong with that? What's wrong with having more knowledge?

U need to quit taking my comments as if they r attacks on u or religious scholars or madrassas. I'm just advocating a streamlined system of education be it religious education or non religious education.

 

[CriticalThought]

Well u r getting frustrated for no reason. U think I'm attacking Madrassas and Muftis. Why feeling so insecure? I never said that Muftis are ignorant and misguided. I hold great respect towards our religious scholars. So quit making assumptions. The interest thing I brought up was just an example to illustrate a point. I wasn't saying that Muftis are ignorant of it.

I'm merely proposing that traditional schools take over the function of madrassas and offer Islamic education side by side with other courses. What's wrong with that? Does educating a student in Quran in a madrassa somehow make him/her better as compared to if that same education was given in a school?

As for my comment about Muftis majoring in other fields along with detailed study of Islam...what's wrong with that? What's wrong with having more knowledge?

U need to quit taking my comments as if they r attacks on u or religious scholars or madrassas. I'm just advocating a streamlined system of education be it religious education or non religious education.

Thanks. Well, the simple answer is that the body of knowledge and the requisite mentoring required to create world class Ulema and Muftis is too extensive to undertake as merely a part of regular studies. That said, definitely we need more Islamic education in regular schooling. The curriculum MUST be devised by the Ulema and Muftis. And this will not mean that everyone can start making their own interpretations of Quran and Sunnah.

 

[Cookie Monster]

Thanks. Well, the simple answer is that the body of knowledge and the requisite mentoring required to create world class Ulema and Muftis is too extensive to undertake as merely a part of regular studies. That said, definitely we need more Islamic education in regular schooling. The curriculum MUST be devised by the Ulema and Muftis. And this will not mean that everyone can start making their own interpretations of Quran and Sunnah.

Just bcuz it is extensive doesn't mean that it can't be taught at regular educational institutions. For example look at how universities operate. The same institution can churn out the best of engineers/scientists/artists/lawyers/doctors/etc. So why not religious scholars?

 

[CriticalThought]

Just bcuz it is extensive doesn't mean that it can't be taught at regular educational institutions. For example look at how universities operate. The same institution can churn out the best of engineers/scientists/artists/lawyers/doctors/etc. So why not religious scholars?

The religious boards represent the entrustment by the State, of the sacred duty to protect and disseminate Divine Knowledge, which is the inheritance left by Holy Prophet Muhammad Sallallahu 'Alaihi Wa Aalihi Wasallam, to its traditional guardians and custodians: the Ulema who are a continuation of the auspicious chain of tutelage that traces its lineage back to the Holy Prophet Sallallahu 'Alaihi Wa Aalihi Wasallam. The universities today hold no authority in this matter, and with the kind of Mulhid scholars that we already know are present in them, they will never hold such authority. Any attempt to do so will meet resolute opposition and will be considered malicious subversion and an attack on Islam and Muslims.

 

[Cookie Monster]

The religious boards represent the entrustment by the State, of the sacred duty to protect and disseminate Divine Knowledge, which is the inheritance left by Holy Prophet Muhammad Sallallahu 'Alaihi Wa Aalihi Wasallam, to its traditional guardians and custodians: the Ulema who are a continuation of the auspicious chain of tutelage that traces its lineage back to the Holy Prophet Sallallahu 'Alaihi Wa Aalihi Wasallam. The universities today hold no authority in this matter, and with the kind of Mulhid scholars that we already know are present in them, they will never hold such authority. Any attempt to do so will meet resolute opposition and will be considered malicious subversion and an attack on Islam and Muslims.

How do u know that it's not going to work? Have u tried it and seen it failed?

How's that an attack on Islam and Muslims? It's just backwards thinking that Islamic studies can't be taught at a traditional school.

 

[CriticalThought]

How do u know that it's not going to work? Have u tried it and seen it failed?

How's that an attack on Islam and Muslims? It's just backwards thinking that Islamic studies can't be taught at a traditional school.

We know very well the brand of Islam being taught in the likes of IIU, Karachi University. And the situation in places like LUMS is beyond repair NOT because of what they teach in Islamic Studies, but what they teach in courses on Witchcraft and rituals. Dude you have no idea how deeply I know the secular lobby and what they represent.

 

[Cookie Monster]

We know very well the brand of Islam being taught in the likes of IIU, Karachi University. And the situation in places like LUMS is beyond repair NOT because of what they teach in Islamic Studies, but what they teach in courses on Witchcraft and rituals. Dude you have no idea how deeply I know the secular lobby and what they represent.

Just bcuz they r doing it wrong doesn't mean that there isn't a right way to do it.

 

[CriticalThought]

Just bcuz they r doing it wrong doesn't mean that there isn't a right way to do it.

At this point you can't hide behind 'trying to learn' and asking 'innocent questions'. What are you trying to achieve? What's your agenda in trying to appoint universities as the centres of Islamic learning?