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JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 4]

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Mastaan,

Your lack of focus and sense of reality is mind boggling. I think you have enjoyed the California life style of your avatars Cheech and Chong too long and it is impacting your judgement. I am not going to say much about the JF17 because others have already said it and in much better way that I could (read Mark Sein's post). What originality do you want in an airplane design? Do you want the design to take the approach of the LCA and their so called original wing design which has turned the whole project into an unmitigating disaster? Do even understand of how risk is managed in projects like these to ensure success? It is great to talk of original ideas and technologies, but if they increase the possibility of failure of a project, they should not used.

As far as the nuclear program is concerned the first generation of our scientist were all western educated but the second and the third generation are not. We had to start somewhere and it would have been stupid to start from scratch and build inhouse capability if the same was available off the shelf. Now we have a situation that the Western Universities especially US are not giving admissions to Pakistani student in sensitive technologies like nuclear and aeronautics in undergraduate let alone doctrate programs. The new generation of scientist which are coming out are locally trained in institutes like PIEAS or going to Chinese or other non-western Universities.


As I have said earlier, you are stuck in time warp. You spoke to your Uncle 30 years, a lot of water has passed under the bridge since then. Also what you have shared about your achievements in life on this forum does not even qualify you to make the sort of judgements you do.

Finally most of things you say have some element of truth but please do not make sweeping statements and generalization as they reflect very poorly on who you are and why you say the things you say.


I think you misread Mastan since from what I gather he is appreciating the fact that the JF-17 is a combination and evolution of proven designs...maybe I misread but I did not see where he was chiding the PAF for not being original.
However, the complacency he talks about, well, I am in the military research loops and I know that there are equal propotions of people of two kinds, those who are really pushing the envelope, and those who would still rather use the lota to wash themselves(figuratively speaking). I too have suffered a lot of frustrations when listening to block headed procurement officers and yet have been left pleasently surprised an equal number of times by engineers in other departments.
But the fact remains that many local entrepreneurs with much better products have been snubbed by the military for foreign solutions.. most because of kickbacks.. and in other cases ignored due to lack of vision.
Look at it this way, 5 years ago, the PAF still had no actual UAV program and despite having 3 local manufacturers with good products it chose to start with Falco systems.
Infact most of IDS, Satuma and even NESCOMs sales were to Sri Lanka and an unnamed African country.
The usage of UAV's was spurred on only after drone attacks started increasing and the PAF command thought.. "Oh.. they are pretty effective".

As far as the local Universities are concerned, I was in one of the top three in current rankings, and frankly the syllabus sucked. It sucked bad. What is taught is irrelevant to anything in the market or to development. Infact, I am responsible for making the life of my Director and Head of department very miserable so they would release funds for embedded chips used in signal processing.. a must for signal processing courses.
And not to boast, but me and my project partner and I have written a new course outline for the lab as well.
Only now have I heard that two other universities have begun implementation such methods of teaching as well.
Most if not all of my batch mates had jobs in mind which involved commercial software writing, something even a 15yr old can do.. or watching monitors for errors, and if they are very bright.. maintaining equipment using OP's written by goras. What do you expect, they aren't given any hands on training, they arent given motivation to do something new. I know PIAS students as well, and unless one of their lecturers decided to take a student under his belt and groom him.. most dont know jack.

Off course the western universities wont give you admission in those places, look what happened the last time they did, you stole nuclear secrets, built an atomic bomb.
But knowledge must be procured from somewhere, and when those that had it back in the 70's and 80's screamed out to those that mattered.. "please, take what I have learned and record it, change how you teach the future generations so when they come they will be taught what I learned just as well as I was taught.." NOBODY listened.
Sadly the washcloth mentality prevailed, bureaucratic red tapes, and general apathy for the nations future led to any attempt at building a strong knowledge base wasted or snubbed.

Most of those that go outside, stay outside..why.. because universities abroad care for their students, they do eveything possible to ensure that the student is happy.. after all.. he/she pays a lot, here in Pakistan, its the opposite, the university does everything possible to ensure the student is always on the brink of suicide.. those that rote.. they pull ahead.. only those lucky enough to have their potential recognized get the opportunities, others are left unemployed and worrying about their future.
Look at the open houses of most universities here, the display is pathetic, the university staff themselves are clueless which project would suit which employer better..
A student from say warwick.. is introduced to the work environment a year before he graduates, once he does, his university pushes for his employment, they build PR with employers enough to make sure the guy or girl is preferred. Then that person has a job and is on his way to be settled.. can he/she expect the same here??

Water may have moved under the bridge in 30 years, but a lot of that 30 year old water is still standing and stagnating all around us...

Sorry for the extreme off topic rant.

The JF, the Shaheen series,,Babur, the Bakhtar Shikan.. are all examples of Pakistani ingenuity.. taking the best of a good thing and making something much better like it.
 
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But the fact remains that many local entrepreneurs with much better products have been snubbed by the military for foreign solutions.. most because of kickbacks.. and in other cases ignored due to lack of vision.
Look at it this way, 5 years ago, the PAF still had no actual UAV program and despite having 3 local manufacturers with good products it chose to start with Falco systems.
Infact most of IDS, Satuma and even NESCOMs sales were to Sri Lanka and an unnamed African country.
The usage of UAV's was spurred on only after drone attacks started increasing and the PAF command thought.. "Oh.. they are pretty effective".

Santro you make good points and I do agree with you. Satuma is a oft quoted example of failure of PAF or the military to encourage local talent. I know the folks from Satuma, I use to fly aeromodels with them. While whatever they have done is comendable and should be encouraged, they are no where near an operational sustainable battle worthy product. Satuma and all other private organization building so called UAVs in Pakistan are mom and pop shops. They should stick to expendable drones and commercial UAVs with off the shelf sensors. A military UAV program is a quantum leap for which they don't have either the talent or the resources. Pakistan Army has had a UAV program since the late 90s but it was basically a tactical program. You will be surprised to know that Pakistan was using Israeli sensors on its earlier UAV thanks to our friends to the North. PAF did not have a program because by design PAF UAV needs are more in the MALE category and there were no options available either domestic or international. The first option they could get hold off they did i.e. Falco and I have no doubt in the mind that kickbacks were involved. Over the next few years we will see some good progress in this area both from NESCOM and our collarboration with Turkey.
 
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I think you misread Mastan since from what I gather he is appreciating the fact that the JF-17 is a combination and evolution of proven designs...maybe I misread but I did not see where he was chiding the PAF for not being original.
However, the complacency he talks about, well, I am in the military research loops and I know that there are equal propotions of people of two kinds, those who are really pushing the envelope, and those who would still rather use the lota to wash themselves(figuratively speaking). I too have suffered a lot of frustrations when listening to block headed procurement officers and yet have been left pleasently surprised an equal number of times by engineers in other departments.
But the fact remains that many local entrepreneurs with much better products have been snubbed by the military for foreign solutions.. most because of kickbacks.. and in other cases ignored due to lack of vision.
Look at it this way, 5 years ago, the PAF still had no actual UAV program and despite having 3 local manufacturers with good products it chose to start with Falco systems.
Infact most of IDS, Satuma and even NESCOMs sales were to Sri Lanka and an unnamed African country.
The usage of UAV's was spurred on only after drone attacks started increasing and the PAF command thought.. "Oh.. they are pretty effective".

As far as the local Universities are concerned, I was in one of the top three in current rankings, and frankly the syllabus sucked. It sucked bad. What is taught is irrelevant to anything in the market or to development. Infact, I am responsible for making the life of my Director and Head of department very miserable so they would release funds for embedded chips used in signal processing.. a must for signal processing courses.
And not to boast, but me and my project partner and I have written a new course outline for the lab as well.
Only now have I heard that two other universities have begun implementation such methods of teaching as well.
Most if not all of my batch mates had jobs in mind which involved commercial software writing, something even a 15yr old can do.. or watching monitors for errors, and if they are very bright.. maintaining equipment using OP's written by goras. What do you expect, they aren't given any hands on training, they arent given motivation to do something new. I know PIAS students as well, and unless one of their lecturers decided to take a student under his belt and groom him.. most dont know jack.

Off course the western universities wont give you admission in those places, look what happened the last time they did, you stole nuclear secrets, built an atomic bomb.
But knowledge must be procured from somewhere, and when those that had it back in the 70's and 80's screamed out to those that mattered.. "please, take what I have learned and record it, change how you teach the future generations so when they come they will be taught what I learned just as well as I was taught.." NOBODY listened.
Sadly the washcloth mentality prevailed, bureaucratic red tapes, and general apathy for the nations future led to any attempt at building a strong knowledge base wasted or snubbed.

Most of those that go outside, stay outside..why.. because universities abroad care for their students, they do eveything possible to ensure that the student is happy.. after all.. he/she pays a lot, here in Pakistan, its the opposite, the university does everything possible to ensure the student is always on the brink of suicide.. those that rote.. they pull ahead.. only those lucky enough to have their potential recognized get the opportunities, others are left unemployed and worrying about their future.
Look at the open houses of most universities here, the display is pathetic, the university staff themselves are clueless which project would suit which employer better..
A student from say warwick.. is introduced to the work environment a year before he graduates, once he does, his university pushes for his employment, they build PR with employers enough to make sure the guy or girl is preferred. Then that person has a job and is on his way to be settled.. can he/she expect the same here??

Water may have moved under the bridge in 30 years, but a lot of that 30 year old water is still standing and stagnating all around us...

Sorry for the extreme off topic rant.

The JF, the Shaheen series,,Babur, the Bakhtar Shikan.. are all examples of Pakistani ingenuity.. taking the best of a good thing and making something much better like it.



I have played golf back home with a lot of people who work with the Army for stuff which otherwise would be hell expensive if they got done with foreign firms.

We need high tech engineering solutions, ones which can spin off for civilian uses also. Well, most of military research in the world helps civilians anyway, not to mention the process of CAD and GPS tech.

Lastly, i agree a lot more needs to be done, and we can't get started until people learn how to think their own rather than copying.
Plagiarism is rampant in Pakistan even in top universities. We better tackle it now.

Thats why we have people getting highest marks in the world in every subject, yet we never see anything technological coming from south asia as a whole.


We can manufacture and fix ipods and iphones, but sadly we can't design them.

But hey, lets stick to JF-17 topic.
 
Santro, Liked your post,
Thank you for pointing out the short comings.
Please keep highlighting.
 
The JF, the Shaheen series,,Babur, the Bakhtar Shikan.. are all examples of Pakistani ingenuity.. taking the best of a good thing and making something much better like it.

Santro,

Good job and thankyou for your post---. The future is your's my man---I am just a middle aged jock trying to hang in.
 
Santro you make good points and I do agree with you. Satuma is a off quoted example of failure of PAF or the military to encourage local talent. I know the folks from Satuma, I use to fly aeromodels with them. While whatever they have done is comendable and should be encouraged, they are no where near an operational sustainable battle worthy product. Satuma and all other private organization building so called UAVs in Pakistan are mom and pop shops. They should stick to expendable drones and commercial UAVs with off the shelf sensors. A military UAV program is a quantum leap for which they don't have either the talent or the resources. Pakistan Army has had a UAV program since the late 90s but it was basically a tactical program. You will be surprised to know that Pakistan was using Israeli sensors on its earlier UAV thanks to our friends to the North. PAF did not have a program because by design PAF UAV needs are more in the MALE category and there were no options available either domestic or international. The first option they could get hold off they did i.e. Falco and I have no doubt in the mind that kickbacks were involved. Over the next few years we will see some good progress in this area both from NESCOM and our collarboration with Turkey.
I spoke to a few authors covering PAF in recent years, and in their informed opinion, the Falco was one of those "good but underrated" systems that received proper recognition only when PAF acquired it. And remember, PAC is co-producing Falco and this certainly opens up the door for (1) additional development of the UAV & (2) realistic possibility of acquiring Falco EVO. In fact, PAF has the opportunity to be a key financial patron of Falco EVO, and thus gain the greater-share of production, development, etc.

As for other programs, there is the Burraq armed-UAV by NESCOM and the potential sale of Anka UAV by Turkey. In fact, I believe AWC/AERO is partner to testing some of TAI Anka's electronics and subsystems. Its possible (with due funding) that AWC can take up development of Anka for Pakistani use, and maybe even co-produce it for domestic needs. Other avenues include the Denel Bateleur MALE UAV and a Chinese program.

It might be odd to have so many parallel programs, especially when all of them are en-route to more or less the same end - i.e. modular MALE UAV capable of armed missions. But it allows for a diversity of experiences and expertise, as well as opportunity to undertake critical cross-examination of similar systems. And while expensive, having multiple UAV programs is not as expensive as many other systems - such as say parallel fighters of the same class.

For now, we have two firm programs in the MALE category: Galilelo Selex-PAC Falco and NESCOM Burraq. The latter is an armed-UAV, but the former certainly has the potential to reach that level as well. My guess is that the final cut would be either the TAI Anka or Denel Bateleur, then we'd have three public firms with a program of their own, and they may compete with one another. Or the PA might stick with NESCOM (Burraq), the PAF with TAI-AWC (Anka), and perhaps use Galileo-PAC to promote an export-centric system based on Falco?

Would certainly give PAC Kamra a healthy export portfolio for air shows - i.e. displaying JF-17 and Falco/Falco EVO...and might explain why we picked up that underdog too! Good catch...might not be the best, but would our intended customers really care? One can utilize the Burraq for exclusively domestic purposes; the Anka locally and high-level multi-national exercises (with NATO); and Falco for export...
 
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@santro

Good post. You seem to be almost speaking about India !
 
JF-17 Thunder (JFT) Pictures

I edited these pictures myself!!!!!!!!!

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I made a video out of these pictures though in hurry!!!! Here is a my video.

 
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@Waqas id love to see ps pics of JFTs flyin above Harappa,mohenjodaro or indus sites!

Gives a historic\ modern touch!= awesome.
 
Santro you make good points and I do agree with you. Satuma is a off quoted example of failure of PAF or the military to encourage local talent. I know the folks from Satuma, I use to fly aeromodels with them. While whatever they have done is comendable and should be encouraged, they are no where near an operational sustainable battle worthy product. Satuma and all other private organization building so called UAVs in Pakistan are mom and pop shops. They should stick to expendable drones and commercial UAVs with off the shelf sensors. A military UAV program is a quantum leap for which they don't have either the talent or the resources. Pakistan Army has had a UAV program since the late 90s but it was basically a tactical program. You will be surprised to know that Pakistan was using Israeli sensors on its earlier UAV thanks to our friends to the North. PAF did not have a program because by design PAF UAV needs are more in the MALE category and there were no options available either domestic or international. The first option they could get hold off they did i.e. Falco and I have no doubt in the mind that kickbacks were involved. Over the next few years we will see some good progress in this area both from NESCOM and our collarboration with Turkey.

You would be surprised how much COTS is in the JF-17, does it not meet military standards??
Almost all over the world every company is moving more towards COTS hardware, the problem for companies like satuma is simple, Pakistan is on the no-sell list for many items..would the PAF not have loved to have the SABR for the Jf.. or maybe the newer Ps-05?
The fact is our achievements belie our actual situation, and somehow through the hurdles of sanctions, bad-education, red tape and corruption we have still managed to keep our heads above the water.
 
do you have eyes . . . . . .

the thread name is . . . . . Re: JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 4]

and you are asking about computers

and for your first question i have replied that you need to go through previous posts and you will have your answer . . . .

i think you need to change your name . . . .

because you are not living up to it . . . . .

but if you insist and want help ......

The JF-17 was designed and developed jointly by China's Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation (CAC), the Pakistan Air Force and Pakistan's Pakistan Aeronautical Complex. The project cost was approximately US$500 million,[2] shared equally by China and Pakistan.

Successor to the Sabre II Project
The J-17 project was commenced after China and Pakistan abandoned the Sabre II Project based on the F-7 when the third partner, Grumman Aerospace Corporation, pulled out in 1991 following the political fallout from the Tiananmen Square protests in China in 1989.

The JF-17 project, being an altogether new project not based on the F-7, did not originate from the Sabre II project, but it was the successor to the Sabre II project.

Launch of the FC-1/Super-7 Project
After the abandonment of the Sabre II Project, CAC continued further independent studies into modifying the F-7 by providing low-level funding from its own resources.

In 1991, China launched a project for the modification of the F-7 and re-branded it as the "FC-1" (local designation) or "Super-7" (for export).[17] The F-7 was further modified with the delta wings of the F-7 replaced by new wings of cropped-delta planform, featuring a pair of hardpoints on the wing-tips and leading edge root extensions blending the wings, side-mounted air intakes and fuselage.

Requiring a more capable and modern fighter to replace its fleet of F-7P, A-5C and Mirage III/V,[18] the PAF high command debated joining the Super 7/FC-1 project. The PAF informed the Chinese that it would only be willing to join the FC-1/Super-7 project if was based on a completely new design and not on the F-7. The Chinese agreed to this proposal.

In 1995, memorandum of understanding (MoU) was signed between Pakistan and China for joint design and development of a new fighter. Pakistan and China worked out the project details over the next few years.[19] In June 1995 it was reported that Mikoyan MAPO had joined CAC on the project to provide design support, believed to be using experience from their "Izdeliye 33" (English: "Project 33") design, a small single-engine fighter similar to the FC-1/Super 7.[20] However, there is no evidence to substantiate this claim.

In October 1995 it was reported that Pakistan was to select a Western company by the end of the year which would provide and integrate the avionics for FC-1, which was expected to go into production by 1999. The avionics were stated to include radar, INS, HUD and MFD. Competing for the contracts were Thomson-CSF with a variant of the RDY radar, Sagem with avionics similar to those used in the ROSE upgrade programme and GEC-Marconi with the new Blue Hawk radar, but FIAR (now SELEX Galileo) was expected to win the radar contract with the Grifo S7 because the PAF had already upgraded F-7 and Mirage III fighters with the Grifo 7 and Grifo M3 radars.[21]

After a period of little activity, a letter of intent (LOI) covering airframe development was signed in Beijing by Pakistan and China in mid-February 1998. Russia's Klimov was reported to be offering a variant of the RD-33 turbofan engine to power the fighter and a mock-up of the cockpit was put on display at the Singapore air show.[22]

In June 1999 the contract to co-develop and produce the Chengdu FC-1/Super 7 was signed during a visit to Beijing by then Prime Minister of Pakistan Nawaz Sharif and Chinese premier Zhu Rongji. The project was to be a 50-50 partnership with the air forces of both Pakistan and China being committed to ordering the fighter. Avionics suites were being proposed by FIAR and Thomson-CSF, based on the Grifo S7 and RC400 radars respectively,[23] after GEC-Marconi had abandoned the bidding to supply an integrated avionics suite including INS, MFD, HUD and mission computer, despite previously hoping to use the PAF's Super 7 to launch its new Blue Hawk radar.[24] Design work progressed very slowly over the next 18 months due to sanctions, placed on Pakistan after the country's May 1998 nuclear tests, preventing delivery of the advanced Western avionics systems to the PAF.

In early 2001, however, a major decision was taken by the PAF to de-couple the platform (airframe) from the avionics systems, enabling design work on the aircraft to continue. An added advantage would be that as the platform was developed, any new avionics requirements by the PAF could easily be catered for, not easily possible had the aircraft been designed for late-1990s era avionics.[19] Prototype production began in September 2002 and a full size mock-up of the FC-1/Super 7 was displayed at Airshow China in November 2002.[25] The first batch of Klimov RD-93 turbofan engines that would power the prototypes was also delivered in 2002.[17]

It has been reported by a Chinese source that use of modern computer aided design (CAD) software, likely the French CATIA package, shortened the design phase of the JF-17 as well as the dual-seat model of the Chengdu J-10.[26]
JF-17 Thunder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Dear Sir,

Its just a copy and paste from wikipedia.
Am I right?

but thanks to spend time to reply me and i hope that u will continue it.

thanks again
 
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