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JF-17 Fighter Slated for Block-2 Upgrades in 2012

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None, the JF-17 has no two seater flying yet, all training is accomplished and is capable of being accomplished for now using the simulator as more current pilots on the JF-17 come with flying experience from F-7's or Mirages.
Only completely new inductions may need a two-seater which is slated within the next 5 years.

won't it be odd to see a fighter to be in service without an operational trainer?
With Pakistan it may be ok,but if you are considering it for export ,then it will a terrible downside.When can one expect a two seat trainer?
 
won't it be odd to see a fighter to be in service without an operational trainer?
With Pakistan it may be ok,but if you are considering it for export ,then it will a terrible downside.When can one expect a two seat trainer?

It will come... soon.
 
won't it be odd to see a fighter to be in service without an operational trainer?
With Pakistan it may be ok,but if you are considering it for export ,then it will a terrible downside.When can one expect a two seat trainer?

why it would be odd? remember F22 and F35 both don't have any twin seaters, and F35 is a export oriented jet but still no twin seaters. so it won't be odd in the case of JFT.
 
Simulator is the keywoed here...
 
won't it be odd to see a fighter to be in service without an operational trainer?
With Pakistan it may be ok,but if you are considering it for export ,then it will a terrible downside.When can one expect a two seat trainer?
why it would be odd? remember F22 and F35 both don't have any twin seaters, and F35 is a export oriented jet but still no twin seaters. so it won't be odd in the case of JFT.
Pilots in -22s and -35s came from established fighters.

The decision to make no trainer versions of both were not that difficult. If you study the evolution of manned aircrafts, civilian and military but especially military, you will notice the progression of the transference of flying tasks from pilot to aircraft. In other words, we want to make the aircraft as autonomous as possible.

For example...In the old days, pilots must learn to make 'stick and rudder' coordinated turns in training and when they graduate and became 'real' pilots, they still have to use that skill. I went through it during my teenage years on the old Cessna 152 before I ran out of money, but that is another story. Anyway...Not so with today's modern avionics, especially with the fly-by-wire type. Pilot candidates went through training on the basics of flight and flight maneuvers but when they get to their assigned aircraft, it will be the computer itself that will make those 'stick and rudder' maneuvers for him. It has become so transparent that the technology has been taken for granted.

Same for other avionics systems like going from air to ground attack modes. In the old days, the pilot would have to 'monkey' around the cockpit with various switches and dials to get the radar and its companion display to work for the clutter filled ground returns. Today -- one flipped switch, may be two. In the old days, like the early Cold War, navigators provides guidance to Soviet targets, today as in the F-111 era of which I was on, the WSO (right seater) have a plug in cartridge and the INS extract the necessary information and off they go.

The-22 and -35 are advanced enough that all the pilot have to do is learn their unique MISSION capabilities, not FLIGHT capabilities, and that includes thrust vectoring for the -22, of which the aircraft makes just about all decisions on how much and how long to exercise which flight control surfaces in coordination with the engine exhaust redirection.

For example...

John Boyd - USAF, The Fighter Pilot Who Changed the Art of Air Warfare
As an instructor at the Fighter Weapons School (FWS) at Nellis AFB, he fought students, cadre pilots, Marine and Navy pilots, and pilots from a dozen countries, who were attending the FWS as part of the Mutual Defense Assistance Pact.

He never lost.

Boyd was famous for a maneuver he called "flat-plating the bird." He would be in the defensive position with a challenger tight on his tail, both pulling heavy Gs, when he would suddenly pull the stick full aft, brace his elbows on either side of the cockpit, so the stick would not move laterally, and stomp the rudder. It was as if a manhole cover were sailing through the air and then suddenly flipped 90 degrees. The underside of the fuselage, wings, and horizontal stabilizer became a speed brake that slowed the Hun from 400 knots to 150 knots in seconds. The pursuing pilot was thrown forward and now Boyd was on his tail radioing "Guns. Guns. Guns."
The Russians call that 'the Cobra' maneuver. We call it 'biiiiiiiig deal'. Forty Seconds Boyd already done it and did it without the avionics level of today's fighters. The Hun was the F-100. Anyway...It was the aircraft that made possible and even easy the 'Cobra maneuver'. Am not saying today's pilots could not do it. Am saying that the aircraft made the maneuver smooth, predictable, and recoverable.

No need for the trainer versions for the -22 and -35.
 
won't it be odd to see a fighter to be in service without an operational trainer?
With Pakistan it may be ok,but if you are considering it for export ,then it will a terrible downside.When can one expect a two seat trainer?


Trainers are there to familiarize the pilot with the aircraft's system, and a good simulator can easily do that job.
 
The government cut down allocation of three
projects of Defense
Division for sparing resources for PWP-11 including slashing
allocation for National Electronics Complex of Pakistan (phase-1) NESCOM Islamabad from Rs1347 million to Rs747 million,



Still wondering why Pakistan's defence projects are delayed,or simply vanished?
 
The government cut down allocation of three
projects of Defense
Division for sparing resources for PWP-11 including slashing
allocation for National Electronics Complex of Pakistan (phase-1) NESCOM Islamabad from Rs1347 million to Rs747 million,



Still wondering why Pakistan's defence projects are delayed,or simply vanished?

haramkhor govt. apny kharchy km ni hoty, aaj he jang news main nya scandal aya hai, or defence funds main katoti krty rehty hain
 
Trainers are there to familiarize the pilot with the aircraft's system, and a good simulator can easily do that job.
Look at it this way...

Yesterday's pilots are -- to put it bluntly -- brutish like rugby players. Today's pilots have no less physical demands placed upon them in the rigors of flight, but the missions, their scopes, and aircrafts' capabilities have became so advanced to accommodate those mission requirements with their widened scopes that a pilot is now more a fencer than a rugby player -- intellectually speaking. It does not matter if his opponent is another pilot or an air defense battery commander. Each adversary present unique lethal challenges that the other cannot replicate but the same pilot must be able to deal with them, sometimes just one, sometimes both at the same time. We can assign a pilot to a dedicated air-air fighter like the F-15A or an air-ground fighter like the A-10, for example, but if necessary, we can (and often do) reassign him to an F-15E fighter-bomber where he must learn to switch between combat modes in a single mission.

Good training would includes physical conditioning to prepare a candidate for the physical rigors of flight and simulators for the intellectual rigors of the variety of missions. When the F-16 came out, it was such a revolutionary leap in avionics that many pilots feared of such a severance, not merely diminishment, of the aircraft from the man, and that no adequate simulators were available at that time, the B model was necessary to familiarize new -16 pilots to the -16's unique capabilities and oddities, such as practically no movements on the stick, something just about all pilots expects in their hands.

Automatic TFR flight was another revolutionary leap in fighter-bomber mission capabilities. If the USAF were to resurrect the F-111, we will not resurrect the simulator that is complete with hydraulics to simulate terrain following flight. The modern simulators we have today can be reprogrammed to simulate the intellectual rigors of TFR flight thru hostile terrain of any country with any degree of air defenses. In fact, at one point in my 4 yrs on the -111, the hydraulics were disabled because the later simulators were good enough to train new pilots on TFR flight on other TFR capable aircrafts like the F-15E.

The closer the simulator is to the real aircraft in terms of familiarizing the new pilot with its mission capabilities, the less the need to build a trainer version of that aircraft and this is even more applicable for newer aircraft when not only can it complement the pilot's skills but can take over completely of certain flying skills if necessary to allow him to concentrate on being the killer that we want.
 
The government cut down allocation of three
projects of Defense
Division for sparing resources for PWP-11 including slashing
allocation for National Electronics Complex of Pakistan (phase-1) NESCOM Islamabad from Rs1347 million to Rs747 million,



Still wondering why Pakistan's defence projects are delayed,or simply vanished?



damn..the new nescom electrionics complex was suppose to be the only site of designing as well as manufacturing t/r modules for radar's.
 
Considering the fact that the JF-17 is a low cost fighter which has good export potential for smaller airforces,i is really essential to have a trainer version.PAF,being a big airforce can easily manage,but that may not be the case with other,smaller airforces who may consider this a/c .
 
Considering the fact that the JF-17 is a low cost fighter which has good export potential for smaller airforces,i is really essential to have a trainer version.PAF,being a big airforce can easily manage,but that may not be the case with other,smaller airforces who may consider this a/c .

The same smaller airforces can send their pilots to Pakistan for training. Not much of a problem there. Pls note the post by Gambit.
 
Awesome I think block 2 will be good as much as f16 block 52:unsure:
 
The same smaller airforces can send their pilots to Pakistan for training. Not much of a problem there. Pls note the post by Gambit.

simulators do have their limitations i believe. Simulator + Trainer will be great but Simulator alone won't be a gud idea. I bet a trainer is on its way.
 
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