Jet Engine Development in China

Discussion in 'JF-17 Thunder' started by fatman17, Jun 28, 2011.

  1. fatman17

    fatman17 PDF THINK TANK: CONSULTANT

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    pls go through - very informative (hope the link works)

    Debate regarding China’s fighter aircraft program continues unabated. A recently-published report [PDF] predicts that China is 5-10 years away from from being able to consistently mass produce turbofan engines for a fifth-generation fighter.





    http://http://www.chinasignpost.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/China-SignPost_39_-China-Tactical-Aircraft-Jet-Engine-Deep-Dive_20110626.pdf
     
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  2. Manticore

    Manticore SENIOR MODERATOR

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  3. MastanKhan

    MastanKhan PDF VETERAN

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    Hi,

    Just by wishing it to happen---it doesnot work that way----at least for now some of my pak compatriots would begin to understand how difficult it is to build a fighter jet engine---and not getting into the 5th generation mode----.

    Now if you take this article and see what india has done with kaveri----that is not a bad job either----people need to realize that in the engineering field---every failure gets you a step closer to success. A failure of a jet engine is just a function of its design and time---what you have to do is to make it fail lesser of times and operate a little longer.


    Quote from the link------" Compensating for shortcomings in either of these areas might require factoring in a substantial margin of error by dedicating additional engines and airframes; were the need great enough, something like 200 Flankers might be needed to ensure the mission fulfillment capabilities of roughly 100 F-15s.

    To put these weaknesses into context, they suggest that in some areas Chinese engine makers are roughly three decades behind their U.S. peers. Technical reports by U.S. manufacturers discussing challenges of actually making hollow fan blades that date back to 1977, implying that Chinese engine fabricators could be three decades behind the state-of-the-art curve at present.[13]

    Abstracts of P&W technical papers from 1976 discuss using nickel superalloy powders to forge turbine discs for the F100 engine.[14] In contrast, as mentioned above, researchers from the China Gas Turbine Establishment cite powder metallurgy for turbine disc production as an enduring weak spot for China’s jet engine industry.[15]Of course, this may represent an attempt to secure additional funding, as opposed to a true reflection of current status; when did the U.S. Air Force (USAF) ever run out of update programs for its fighters?

    One cautionary point here is that Chinese jet engine makers have a latecomer advantage, which allows them to learn from other engine makers’ successes and failures and potentially to shave years from their own research-development-production sequence. To put matters in perspective, the P&W F119 engine that powers the F-22 Raptor was developed and refined in the 1980s and ’90s, so China does not necessarily need to attain the current 2011 state-of-the-art in tactical jet engine technology to field formidable propulsion systems that could give the J-20 true 5thgeneration fighter performance characteristics.

    Thermal cycling. The engines on a large transport or tanker typically run at a fairly steady speed setting for most of a flight. Engines on tactical aircraft, by contrast, undergo extreme speed changes as pilots frequently and quickly change throttle settings during high-intensity maneuvering. As the engine undergoes rapid temperature changes, thermal cycling generates significant wear. The experiences of the USAF with the first truly high-performance U.S. afterburning turbofan, the P&W F100, exemplify the unexpected safety and maintenance challenges that thermal cycling can generate.

    While developing the F100, P&W engineers believed that the key determinant of stress on engine parts would be the length of time spent at the highest temperatures (i.e. full power and/or very high speed flight).[17] In practice, however, the F100’s unprecedented performance enabled new air combat techniques and training regimens that emphasized rapid and frequent maneuvering. This incurred relatively little time at full power or high Mach numbers, but entailed far more throttle changes than the engine designers had anticipated.

    In fact, while the F100 design requirements called for being able to accommodate 1,765 full throttle transients during the engine’s service life, actual operational use showed that engine life ended up being more than 30% lower than expected because the engine was undergoing more than five times the number of "----quote from above link
     
  4. notorious_eagle

    notorious_eagle PDF THINK TANK: CONSULTANT

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    Khan Sahib

    The Chinese are not just wishing, they are working day night on these projects. They are not just running one, they are running simultaneous projects to overcome this shortage. They know that engine quality is one field where they need to catch up with the West and they are working extremely hard in this field to bridge the difference. Look at all the other fields where the Chinese have bridged the gap with the West. They are pouring in billions of dollars in R&D and churning out thousands of engineers every year, its only a matter of time before they close this gap.

    They just produced a prototype of a 5th Generation Aircraft, about 15 years ago they were producing MIG21's, do you see the timeline on how fast they have progressed. Do you honestly want to bet that the Chinese wont master this technology in the next decade ;). Never in the history of this world has a country grown at the pace that China is developing in every sector, they have abandoned the idea of quantity and are not focusing on quality and the results are right infront of us. They are not aiming to be Number 2, they are aiming to be Number 1. Europe has already lost its military permanence as they are severely reliant on the US for any power projection, they are cutting their military expenditures and just focusing on niche products because they lack the funds to create a real military industry complex something which China is building.
     
  5. MastanKhan

    MastanKhan PDF VETERAN

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    Notorious,

    My man---if you read the complete article, you will find out why they are learning fast----but also you will find out why they are so far lagging behind in fighter aircraft engine-----the article is very clear in its assessment of what is happening with the chinese----what kind of hurdles they are facing due to what factors------.

    The reason the chinese are not that far behind is for the reason that late comers learn from the mistakes of the originators---the playing field has been readied for them-but the area that they are facing their hurdles----that area can break anyones back until and unless they get a technical break from somewhere.
     
  6. Dazzler

    Dazzler PDF THINK TANK: CONSULTANT

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    Onyl a matter of time, WS-10 series is already appearing on J-11A, B, now even J-10B. Next two-three years might see them in active service with spanking IOC under them.
     
  7. muse

    muse PDF THINK TANK: CONSULTANT

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    Can someone shed greater light on the characterization of design bureaus as "Balkanized" and it's significance?

    When speaking of standardization, what exactly are they speaking about? Is that multiple technology paths? multiple industrial process paths?
    If I understood correctly, "industrial process" is a problem - how specifically?
    l
     
  8. Syed.Ali.Haider

    Syed.Ali.Haider ELITE MEMBER

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    The management of design bureaus in the USSR was too fragmented to take advantage of the the talent and knowledge at their disposal. This led to much wasted effort and resources, and decreased the quantity and quality of the end-products greatly.

    There are many pathways of design, technology and production that go into producing a modern jet engine. For example, how does one transfer the output of a design from the concept to the prototype stage? Do the computers talk to each other correctly? (There are many more intricacies involved.)
     
  9. muse

    muse PDF THINK TANK: CONSULTANT

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    But if the criticism is that management is too fragmented, then it goes against the argument with regard to "engine competition" and that the competition brings out the best - I am having trouble with this - I think we should look at this piece with less credibility than we have accorded it.
     
  10. Syed.Ali.Haider

    Syed.Ali.Haider ELITE MEMBER

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    Good point, but there ways of managing competition as well, with specifics related to the technical areas. For example, the competition may be the design of high pressure high temperature turbine blades, but using a set of given alloy and systems and platforms.
     
  11. hatf IX

    hatf IX FULL MEMBER

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    WS-10 on j10b

    WS-10 on single engine fighter shows,
    that the engine is matured enough, And Chinese are taking risk of putting the engine on single engine fighter

    and there are 50 j-15 flying with that engine also

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    source houshanghai
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  12. hatf IX

    hatf IX FULL MEMBER

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    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  13. hatf IX

    hatf IX FULL MEMBER

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    in this particular video

    J-20, JF-17 and J-10B all flying with Chinese engines

    J-10b with WS-10
    JF-17 with WS-13

    shows the level of maturity of Chinese engine . . . .. .
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 5, 2013
  14. Beast

    Beast ELITE MEMBER

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    That article is outdated.. China is 5-10 years from mass producing modern turbo fan engines??? I am telling you now. China has already mass producing modern turbofan.. Ws-10 is same class as F100 and F110 engines.. It uses on J-11B, J-11BSH, J-15 and now J-10B.

    By putting WS-10 on J-10B which is a single engine aircraft. It shows the confident,maturity of this engine. China has no problem mass producing these engines. If not, how can it be used on so many type of aircraft?

    Please ditch this own article. They shall rewrite one after seeing the J-10B with WS-10 engine.
     
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  15. Syed.Ali.Haider

    Syed.Ali.Haider ELITE MEMBER

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    You are correct is saying that China has made tremendous progress in jet engine design and manufacture. However, it still has quite a ways to go before it catches up with the state of the art in this critical area.