IS pakistan army, missing counter-ambush traning for its regular troops?

Discussion in 'Pakistan Army' started by batmannow, Oct 26, 2008.

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  1. batmannow
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    batmannow ELITE MEMBER

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    IS pakistan army, missing counter-ambush traning for its regular troops?
    This is the question , which comes in every pakistani's mind, specialy when he, hear the news, that a formation of troops were attacked some where in fata, or in swat , or in baluchistan.
    does pak-militry leadership, is trying to give special traning to its regular troops, who were facing a tough,hard & unseen enemy in the form of (alqeada) plus talibans, who were trying to push as many surprized ambushes & attackes on pak army!
    open thread, plz open your mind, feel free but follow the forum rules.
  2. Kharian_Beast
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    Kharian_Beast FULL MEMBER

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    New military bases should be built right in the epicenter and heartland of these problems. I mean in the same village as the trouble causers, an initial takeover should not be wasted by leaving the area and giving the villages back to Taliban or foreign control. New police stations and paramilitary barracks should also be built. Police wages and paramilitary wages should double, and schools and clinics should be built along with giving people free food and supplies through local mosques or churches. We can not expect the US to do this for us (they won't), these things are vital apart from the military aspect because from what I know the PA teaches a soldier everything about warfare. This is a real concerted effort, and attacks should go down while awareness and response will quickly go up. If money is a problem, I suggest the illicit drug market, it has done wonders for the US.

    In conclusion, the government needs to establish itself in these trouble areas or they will fall into someone else's hands down the road and the common soldier who had nothing to do with it will be blamed for lack of training.
  3. BATMAN
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    BATMAN ELITE MEMBER

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    To be on offensive in urban warfare is like committing sucide.
    You can try it at your home or prepare a stage and take some paint ball guns and in offensive mode you are certain to get hit and in defensive you are surely to come out as winner.
    This gorilla/urban warfare is not a wining proposal for any army of the world. In real life Ramboo can not survive more than few minutes.
    We have to lure terrorists in to open areas and than sarround them and wait until they are done with their ammunition. Its a game of patience.
    Our enemy is intelligent and is playing war on our land and if we need to win it we need to take this war to their land other wise we are certain to lose.
  4. batmannow
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    batmannow ELITE MEMBER

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    Dear BATMAN;sir
    what ever you had written in your post, are in fact realities, but what is this thread about?
    its about, the trainig and awerness of counter- ambushes and surprized attacks, which pak army is facing these days, what ever the circumstances are, our troops need special training for these ambushes.
    its cant be, taken seriously that regular troops can win gorilla/urban warfare , but they can sustain the situation at least?

    the gorilla/urban warfare theory, was only can sucssed with efficiant support from some where!
    here is an example,
    Russia Chechnya Conflict
    Russia has always said that its military campaign in Chechnya is part of what Moscow calls "an anti-terrorist operation", and that peaceful Chechen civilians have nothing to fear. The Chechen rebels on the contrary call their struggle as a "war of liberation". They say that Chechnya has never voluntarily joined Russia and has only ever been conquered by military force.

    The first bloody battle of Russia:
    Right from history there have been crisis going on between Russia and Chechnya. Russia wants Chechnya to be its integral part, but people of Chechnya oppose it. The conflict over the region now known as Chechnya is since the mid-18th century.

    The earliest record of fight between czarist Russian forces and Muslim tribes in the region is in the year 1722. Russian troops conquered much of the area by mid century. During the same period, Sheikh Mansur, a Muslim cleric, gathered the Chechen tribes and started revolt against the czar and his army, gave a shock to Russian forces in 1785 by defeating them. Mansur is considered as an idol even today and an inspiration to all the Chechnya’s people to maintain on their stand.

    Russia attack:
    The rising tension between the two eventually resulted in war in 1994, which was proved to be the badly organized mission by Russian troops. Chechnya's president Dzhokhar Dudayev during that period refused to compromise on the Kremlin line. This made Russian troops; felt that the part of their land was invaded which made them more furious.

    Initially Moscow tried the tactics of getting the support of local people by providing them funds to invoke people of Chechnya against their President Dudayev. They also gathered the support of some of the forces, which helped Russian to set a secret attack on Grozny on 26 November 1994. Lack of proper planning for the attack made Russians to pay badly for it. The Chechen forces managed to face the sudden attack with courage and forced the Russian forces to retreat the attack. The Chechens captured around 20 Russian troops.

    On 29 November, President Boris Yeltsin gave warning to Chechnya to disarm and surrender. The victory of the Chechens over Russian forces boosted them to oppose Russia’s ultimatum and denied to accept it. Russian forces then attacked on December first with massive aerial bombardments. The civilians were also targeted. This hardly proved any harm to Chechens who took the underground shelter.

    On 11 December 1994, President Yeltsin increased the intensity of campaign and sent in the thousands of troops. Mean while President Dudayev declared war and forecasted that Russia would meet fierce resistance. Chechen Foreign Minister Shamsedin Yusef made a bold statement that they cannot kill every Chechen, there are one million of us and every one of us will fight.

    Just after two days Russian forces entered Chechnya there was a battle with explosions all over the places. Chechens had limited supply of artillery and weapons so they decided to make the attack that would prove more effective. Armed with rocket-propelled grenade launchers they operated in small guerrilla units. They made for their lack in power and training by improvisation. They moved entire villages to prevent the passage of tanks.

    Both the sides were exhausted and situation aroused such that both felt they should opt for peace talks. But none came forward with the peace proposal. The Russian military made heavy bombardments and hundreds of tanks entered the capital Gronzy. This massive onslaught against the capital began on New Year's Eve 1994.

    Guerilla technique: This did not deter Chechen. They again used their tactic, which went quite successfully for them. Small groups were formed and they attacked the leading tanks, which passed through narrow passages with grenades. This caused obstruction for the following tanks, which made those Russian soldiers easy victims of Chechen forces.


    Chechnya was probably not granted independence for geopolitical and economic reasons. For example:
    Russia never accepted Chechnya as a separate republic and was determined not to encourage other areas to secede (perhaps similar to how many have pointed out that western imperial countries were trying hard to prevent “their” colonies from breaking free in the aftermath of the Second World War);
    The resulting anarchy in Chechnya strengthened Russian belief that the region should not become independent and undermine its territorial integrity;
    Furthermore, oil is a significant factor in this region.
    A major oil pipeline carries oil from fields in Baku on the Caspian Sea and Chechnya toward the Ukraine;
    Grozny's major oil refinery along this pipeline and Russia's interest to ensure their oil needs are also met has led them to be more concerned that pipeline discussions by major western oil companies have not involved them;
    As long as Chechnya is a part of Russia, Moscow would have a say in the oil flowing through it.


    Chechnya was been a great battle ground of the modren day gorilla/urban warfare , but after a long hard, rough fight, russia made safficiant succses, by forcing Chechniyan gorilla's to a truce(cease fire), with some agreement on some independence of Chechniyan people, but russia was the succsesfull & victorious by keeping Chechnya , under mosscow's rule!
    how it was done?
    why Chechniyan gorilla's accepted the ceasr fire?

    in the begening russia, tried with its armmoured units, to attack Chechniyan gorilla's but, it was quickly become unsuccsess full against a enemy which was hiding in the tops of the mountains, Chechniyan gorilla's never tried to put up positions against mighty russians, so there was no targets to russians tanks, and russia suffered heavy losses due to thier tanks attacks strategy against Chechniyan gorilla's .
    for Chechniyan gorilla's , it was to attack the enemy because of there heavy stuff but ,in the end they lost because they cant get any of support from any where.

    durring the last months of the conflict , russia adopted a new strategy!
    by training thier regular troops for ambushes & surprized attacks, by doing that , russia got back in the lost war.
    it was said that, to protect a formation of troops , russia made its special forces secure regular troops , & by doing that they made, the numbers of succsess full ambushes fall down, for Chechniyan gorilla's it was the basic way to succsess, so by cutting thier basic strategic, russia strongly came back in the lost war.
    Chechniyan gorilla's cant stand long enough, against mighty russians because they started protection process+training, of thier regular troops, as no support from anywhere for Chechniyan gorilla's,stongly sarrounded by russian army, had no choice left other than to accept a deal, with some independence.

    DOES our high command is thinking for some kind of "special traininng + special tactics"?:undecided::smitten::pakistan:
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2008
  5. BATMAN
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    Dear Batmannow,
    Yes of course they desperately need training for urban warfare. Red Mosque storming was a clear indication of that.
    IMO, our commandos stormed the building like ramboo and result was quite clear they lost lives.
    Until they get proper training they should change their mind set and build strong defenses and behave more cautiously.
    They should have cameras around their check posts and some sort of alarm in certain radius. while operating in open areas.

    Now coming back to the comparison with Russian case.
    TTP in Pakistan have support of much more high tech. resources than Pak forces themselves, they found safe heavens inside Afghanistan, and we cannot cross the line.
    Satellites co-ordinate there operations, they have support of welplaced intelligence network in the fabric of our society in shape of RAW.

    Our main problem is that war is in our land and it is our infrastructure getting damaged and it is our soldiers who are subjected to stress.
    If we also take this war to our enemies land they will immediately pull out or come out in open.
    Only solution to this foreign sponsor terrorism is that Pakistan have a political strength to take the matter to the involved states on diplomatic level and exposing the axis of evil in media.
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  6. haviZsultan
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    haviZsultan PDF THINK TANK: ANALYST

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    Very true... the taliban even had NOD's, radar jammers and communcation equipment that avoids us eavesdropping... has a ragged band of insurgents ever had access to arms ammunition and technical gadgets these talibani cultists have? No.

    Even still lions like Haroon Ur Rashid embraced shahadat saving innocent Pakistani girls trapped and held by RAW supported militatants bent on destroying lives of innocent Pakistanis.

    A foreign source is very actively involved in destroying the peace within Pakistan. This much is very clear. Funds of over 680 million have been used to fund a campaign of suicide bombing and barbarism against the Pakistani people. India is a very dangerous nation that is supporting a very dangerous terrorist force. Also it may be interesting to note that Alqaeda and taliban both have launched no single suicide bombing or bomb attack in India clearly proving their link to the Indians.
  7. batmannow
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    batmannow ELITE MEMBER

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    Dear BATMAN;sir
    you are quiet right,describing the "axis of evil" against pak army, but still its the basic traning , which makes troops more efficiant & foucused, against any enemy.
    why dont we cut the resources, or at least do something to stop the support of these militants. but realy, i havnt heard any thing like this(counter -ambush) training in pakarmy, btw i have a good friend, who use to be a instructure in marine crops. in US, as he told me, about the effectivness the special counter-ambush training in US army on every combat crops they have in iraq, afghanistan.

    as he told me, about iraq counter-ambush training gave great results, to a nicly balanced strategy, which is giving the security boost,in the most brutal centers of insurgncy.
    basicly, our militry leadership, needs a new cocept of training, which is requried very much,not because of our problums in NWFP, but in genral , we need a new kind of smart,tough,& strong soldier, who can understand the situation very fastly, and could react in any situation.
    Now a days Ambush's were, became a lethal weapon against, every army of the world, what my point is, that we should not restrict, counter-ambush training to our special opreation forces, but we should make it compalsry to each and every soilder of our every branch of forces, or simply we should put it as a advanced basic training of the regular troops.

    Case of lal masjid , was due to wrong assesment of the situation, before that opreation , there was perceptions that, militants inside the mosque are not well trained, not well equiped & just a matter of time they will give up at some point!
    all these mis-perceptions were became, a horrified dream, when SSG launched the opreation. frist and very logical point in every opreation in any where around the world is the right assesment of the real situation, but what we did there? we tried to talk with them , we gave a lot of time , we showed a lot of troops srrounding the lal mosque, which gave the militants a smpathy and popularity.

    in the end when , we doesnt get to any point , we called a commando strike of SSG! any how,you are right in saying the actions taken by SSG were not clean , neat and quick as all the situation demanded.
    we also need's to, advance our SSG's special training, with different types of weapons ,different situations, in different conditions. i guss , it would be better that, we should ask different friendly countries to assist us, for example china, france, has good experiences, we should have, regular exersize programs in every year, with different regions as the paractice zones.:tup:
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