Export bids for JF-17 Thunder Multirole Lightweight Fighter Aircraft

[karan.1970]

we'll be already having 2 sqds by the end of this year.....I think it is a clear enough signal.....secondly its a 50-50 project (but some sources indicated that PAF has more than 50% share anyways keeping this aside) so whoso ever manufactures the order...the profit will be shared between China and Pakistan...and btw can you elaborate the highlighted statement?

The highlighted statement means that China owns the techincal part of most of the components like avionics, Engine (imported from Russia or WS 13) etc, where as those are used to actually create the plane at the production line in Pakistan. Have I got it wrong??

 

[Chanakyaa]

I wish to get info over one important aspect.

What will be the actual profit for pakistan on the sale of a single aircraft.. Considering 90% parts will be from china.

JF17 for PAF is an awesome addition.. But..I wish to know if the sale of jf17 will really
Give $$ to pakistan.

Do consider the price which is just $ 15 Million per plane.

 

[blain2]

Bro I dont know about JF17 too well. But that pod-like thing looks like something completely external. I mean if its a cannon, where is ammo tank then? It need a belt to get fed...

Here is an F16s 20mm M61 Vulcan cannon:

I just noticed the "TEHLİKE" sign and the Turkish flag at the tail wing

Legionnaire,

It is the gun. The idea is to have a gun that can be replaced if required. There are two options available with the gun on the JF-17. The standard one is the 23 mm GSh-23-2 twin-barrel cannon mounted under the port side air intake, which can be replaced with a 30 mm GSh-30-2 twin-barrel cannon.

 

[Nahraf]

Why is Pakistan looking for customers for JF-17 ? We need at least 250 and that will take years to manufacture them. We need to quickly replace our old fighters so why this need to export so quickly ? The possible export to Egypt has resulted in Russia's possible refusal of RD-93. The Chinese WS-13 engine is not ready and it will take time to put in production.

 

[blain2]

Why is Pakistan looking for customers for JF-17 ? We need at least 250 and that will take years to manufacture them. We need to quickly replace our old fighters so why this need to export so quickly ? The possible export to Egypt has resulted in Russia's possible refusal of RD-93. The Chinese WS-13 engine is not ready and it will take time to put in production.

Export allows economies of scale to be established. It becomes cheaper to produce at a lower cost when there is a larger order to fill. Some like Egypt (if they opt for it) may decide to set up their own assembly. I am not one to believe that Turkey is interested in the aircraft. The target will primarily remain South Asia, Central Asia/Caucasus and South America possibly.

 

[blain2]

I wish to get info over one important aspect.

What will be the actual profit for pakistan on the sale of a single aircraft.. Considering 90% parts will be from china.

JF17 for PAF is an awesome addition.. But..I wish to know if the sale of jf17 will really
Give $$ to pakistan.

Do consider the price which is just $ 15 Million per plane.

Price is different from cost or COGS involved in such sale. Obviously if the aircraft is being sold at $15-20 million, there is a decent profit margin as nobody sells at cost. PAC and Chinese have an understanding to sell the aircraft and split the profits 50/50. Even if the profit margins are around 10-20% (I believe they will be greater), you can see that per unit sold, this is a pretty decent revenue specially for PAC for more work on other things.

 

[gambit]

Legionnaire,

It is the gun. The idea is to have a gun that can be replaced if required. There are two options available with the gun on the JF-17. The standard one is the 23 mm GSh-23-2 twin-barrel cannon mounted under the port side air intake, which can be replaced with a 30 mm GSh-30-2 twin-barrel cannon.

Problem here is alignment between the gun pod and the aircraft's sight. Manufacturing and maintenance must be top notch to deal with the inevitable out of alignment situation because of recoil. Not saying it is insurmountable but the problem is serious. The US Navy version of the F-35 will have an external gun pod.

 

[araz]

I wish to get info over one important aspect.

What will be the actual profit for pakistan on the sale of a single aircraft.. Considering 90% parts will be from china.

JF17 for PAF is an awesome addition.. But..I wish to know if the sale of jf17 will really
Give $$ to pakistan.

Do consider the price which is just $ 15 Million per plane.

OK guys. Pakdef.info reported that the profit share between Pak and China is 58:42 respectively.I think it might have been Pshamim saheb. And before you say something this came as a surprise to all of us.
Secondly people are going bonkers over engine thrust.I think WS10/ RD93 with 100Ktn would be ideal for JF Thunder.There are possibilities for various other engine fits ,but I suspect the owner will have to bear the cost of the refit and research, as this is the case ordinarily if you specify some special features. I am not aviation expert but I think 130 KTn engine will tear the airframe apart , so at the moment we will be happy with 95/100 Ktn engine, as it satisfies all our needs adequately. If the later blocks need a better engine , that will be looked into at an appropriate time.
Ukaraiians have a derivative of RD33 with 100KTn output that PAF is aware of but i think PAF is currently satisfied with RD93, primarily because of possible availability of WS13 soon.
araz

 

[Nahraf]

Export allows economies of scale to be established.

I think we need to have at least half our requirements fulfilled before we start to take export orders. Our obsolete fighters need to be replaced as soon as possible. The JF-17 project seems to have changed focus to exports.

 

[araz]

I think we need to have at least half our requirements fulfilled before we start to take export orders. Our obsolete fighters need to be replaced as soon as possible. The JF-17 project seems to have changed focus to exports.

I agree with you .However please understand that it takes a couple of yrs to complete negotiations for an aircraft and sort out financial issues. Then from the time of order it will take another 3 yrs roughly before the aircraft is delivered.Take that into account and you will be delivering in 2015 time period .Are you still unsatisfied?
I think it will be a good thing for PAF/CATIC to sell as many units as is possible as it will generate revenues which can be utilized in further R+D and consequent improvements.
Araz

 

[Nahraf]

Then from the time of order it will take another 3 yrs roughly before the aircraft is delivered.Take that into account and you will be delivering in 2015 time period.

JF-17 engine issue has not be resolved. Why jeopardize project the to replace our obsolete fighters ? Both JF-17 and FC-20 will have Russian engines. Why go after the same export market Russians are targeting ? Looks like we will be flying our obsolete A-5, F-7 and Mirage III until 2020.

 

[araz]

JF-17 engine issue has not be resolved. Why jeopardize project the to replace our obsolete fighters ? Both JF-17 and FC-20 will have Russian engines. Why go after the same export market Russians are targeting ? Looks like we will be flying our obsolete A-5, F-7 and Mirage III until 2020.

A few things need to be cleared.Thunder has no equivalent in the russian inventory.So who/what are we competing with? Russians typically produce twin engined beasts which are not what the thunder is , a small single engined mid spec 4th gen fighter for countries with limited finances,Twin engined fighters become so expensive that not many countries will go for them
Secondly the issue of the engine has been advertised in the press.However, WS13 is a couple of yrs away from mass production. If you take that into account, and add the info from my last post on the matter, the decision and the logic behind it starts to make sense. The engine issue will not reckon into it at all.
The last point I want to make is that for the next half /decadeChina is not going to market F10 to very many countries. Pakistan may be the only exception. Again that decision depends on the availability of WS10, which is nearing completion. With the engine issue resolved China would be free of the Russian influence once and for all.
Araz

 

[Qasibr]

A few things need to be cleared.Thunder has no equivalent in the russian inventory.So who/what are we competing with? Russians typically produce twin engined beasts which are not what the thunder is , a small single engined mid spec 4th gen fighter for countries with limited finances,Twin engined fighters become so expensive that not many countries will go for them
Secondly the issue of the engine has been advertised in the press.However, WS13 is a couple of yrs away from mass production. If you take that into account, and add the info from my last post on the matter, the decision and the logic behind it starts to make sense. The engine issue will not reckon into it at all.
The last point I want to make is that for the next half /decadeChina is not going to market F10 to very many countries. Pakistan may be the only exception. Again that decision depends on the availability of WS10, which is nearing completion. With the engine issue resolved China would be free of the Russian influence once and for all.
Araz

Araz your posts are informative as ever . What's your take on the 2-seater JF-17, do you think that's still on?

Some airforces might have a very high attrition rate with their untrained pilots flying single-seat JFTs on their own. It would suck to have the JFT develop a reputation for failure, frequent crashes, and low quality, due to the level of training the pilots have.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Araz your posts are informative as ever . What's your take on the 2-seater JF-17, do you think that's still on?

Some airforces might have a very high attrition rate with their untrained pilots flying single-seat JFTs on their own. It would suck to have the JFT develop a reputation for failure, frequent crashes, and low quality, due to the level of training the pilots have.

Even if we don't have a two seat version of JF-17s, for training it can be compensated by getting an advanced jet trainer, L-15 kind of, having full digital FBW, HOTAS etc things, which can fully utilized for training pilots at OCU level before sending them to JF-17s, till any AJT is not procured, we can use the twin seat F-16s to train pilots and send them to JF-17s.

But if twin seat JF-17 is not a feasible option, then 2 Sqd strength L-15 kind of AJT would be able to do the job.

 

[Quwa]

There will likely be a two-seat JF-17, it was confirmed by PAF itself on numerous occasions all within the last couple years. Not only would it be used for OCU, but potentially other important roles as well.

For example, there is scope for the twin-seat in EW roles - similar to the EA-18G Growler. My understanding is that the most significant 'change' would be the use of a special full-spectrum EW pod similar to AN/ALQ-99. Obviously we're not talking about something of the same standard or quality, but the concept can definitely be explored. Existing relations with companies from Turkey, China, Italy, France, etc, should be exploited in this regard. The 'JF-17EW' would give PAF tremendous flexibility in its operations by (1) ensuring a higher number of EW and combat aircraft available, (2) allow the use of EW in more dangerous zones as 'JF-17EW' can be equipped with AAM/ARM. Plus absorbing losses of JF-17 will not be as significant as say DA-20.