Disproving some genocide claims

[EagleEyes]

Salim, Venkat and Vinod,

When it is a matter between Pakistanis and Bangladeshis then why are you interfering when even Bangladeshis start admitting that the figure is false India try to convince them. Yes Pakistan is not big enough to be converted into another Bangladesh but surely India is.

Yes, India is an opportunist and with their expansionist desires they can do any thing because they are simply opportunists and nothing to do with ethics and humanity.

Very well said.

 

[Vinod2070]

Salim, Venkat and Vinod,

When it is a matter between Pakistanis and Bangladeshis then why are you interfering when even Bangladeshis start admitting that the figure is false India try to convince themYes Pakistan is not big enough to be converted into another Bangladesh but surely India is..

Yes, India is an opportunist and with their expansionist desires they can do any thing because they are simply opportunists and nothing to do with ethics and humanity.

As I said earlier this figure was given by Mujib and it is a Bangladeshi figure. India was a party to the 1971 liberation war. You can't wish it away.

Your post proves the objectivity you have. So I see no point in arguing further on this.

If you look at history objectively, you can find out who has always been an opportunist. You call Russian communists as Godless but have no problem with Chinese Godless communists who are having their own problems with their Muslim separatists and where Muslims are not even free to practice their religion!

I can go on and on about the so called opportunism but I see no point in that. Every state needs to protect its interests and they behave accordingly. No country in the world (except one) accuses India of being opportunistic. India can actually be a moral leader in the world if we get our act togather.

 

[EagleEyes]

As I said earlier this figure was given by Mujib and it is a Bangladeshi figure. India was a party to the 1971 liberation war. You can't wish it away.

What don't you understand? Can't you read what has been discussed hundred times in the above discussions? It is IMPOSSIBLE for the Pakistan Army to kill the traitorous Bengalis in a million range. Whether it is Michael Jackson figure or Mujibs. The fact is that it is not true, and is a very valid common sense.

So do us all a favor, and keep your delusional nationality based denial out of this thread.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Folks, this thread was opened to have some rational discussion and possible refutation of the "genocide" and 3 million Bengalis killed claim. It isn't about Mujib claiming so and so - it is about quoting various sources, analyzing the claims and attempting to see what is plausible.

At this point Blain's, post that argues the improbability of the number of people each Pakistani soldier would have to kill and rape is quite convincing. There is the additional claim that the 3 million figure factored in the dead from cyclone earlier. I think the discussion needs to proceed in a more rational manner along these lines - provide sources and debate for or against their conclusions.

 

[Vinod2070]

What don't you understand? Can't you read what has been discussed hundred times in the above discussions? It is IMPOSSIBLE for the Pakistan Army to kill the traitorous Bengalis in a million range. Whether it is Michael Jackson figure or Mujibs. The fact is that it is not true, and is a very valid common sense.

So do us all a favor, and keep your delusional nationality based denial out of this thread.

I don't remember having quoted this or any figure. If it is impossible, so be it. I don't carry a chip on my shoulder to prove or otherwise a particular figure. I think it can't be done through supposedly logical web posts alone and has to be done on the ground by reputed neutral researchers whose findings are then internationally accepted and most importantly accepted by the victims: The Bangladeshis.

The last part pretty much may apply as much to you too based on your response. But we all have different views based on our background.

 

[Vinod2070]

Folks, this thread was opened to have some rational discussion and possible refutation of the "genocide" and 3 million Bengalis killed claim. It isn't about Mujib claiming so and so - it is about quoting various sources, analyzing the claims and attempting to see what is plausible.

At this point Blain's, post that argues the improbability of the number of people each Pakistani soldier would have to kill and rape is quite convincing. There is the additional claim that the 3 million figure factored in the dead from cyclone earlier. I think the discussion needs to proceed in a more rational manner along these lines - provide sources and debate for or against their conclusions.

I pretty much agree with you. It would indeed be astonishing for the PA to have murdered 3 million civilians in so little a time even if all the army did was murder all day long.

But even if the actual figure was much less (and no one seems to be presenting any neutral trustworthy sources for a particular number), even if it was 1/10 of that number that is a huge number of murders and certainly qualifies for genocide.

Just to keep things in perspective, Gujarat riots claimed a total of 766 Muslim victims and 268 Hindu victims (I know an American report prematurely claimed up to 2000 Muslim victims, but these are the final government figures) and these are universally called genocide by Pakistanis!

And even the 2 decade old Kashmir insurgency with so much terror thrown in has claimed much less victims.

 

[BanglaBhoot]

The invitation to prove your claims is, as always, open on the 'Proving Bangladesh genocide' thread.

Sheikh Mujibur Rahman could not count properly so he unwittingly added an extra zero at the end of 300 000. What he meant to say was 300 000 killed not 3 million. Unfortunately the figure of 3 million has stuck ever since that interview with the BBC.

 

[Vinod2070]

Hogwash and lies.

Keep repeating a lie long enough and you think it will come true.

Atrocities committed, yes, and they are to be regretted and condemned, but nothing close to this poppycock you continuously spout.

The invitation to prove your claims is, as always, open on the 'Proving Bangladesh genocide' thread. Do so or quit repeating a lie.

The number was not important. That's the number I have read in many places even international books, but it itself is not important.

What is important is that the large scale atrocities took place because of the reasons I mentioned.

 

[BanglaBhoot]

The number was not important. That's the number I have read in many places even international books, but it itself is not important.

What is important is that the large scale atrocities took place because of the reasons I mentioned.

Atrocities were committed all round in that conflict. You should have seen how the Mukti Bahini and Mujib Bahini behaved. What is not documented is the Bengali on Bengali violence that occurred. Some of the killings of leftists were carried out on the orders of RAW. It is not clear how many deaths were caused by Indian policy of elimination and assassination.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

The number was not important. That's the number I have read in many places even international books, but it itself is not important.

What is important is that the large scale atrocities took place because of the reasons I mentioned.

You may have read the number in several publications, but that does not make it true, since the source itself is compromised and flawed. What we have attempted to do in the thread I mentioned is to try and counter that figure through empirical evidence, reasoning and accounts and estimates from other sources that contradict the 3 million figure.

If I gather your argument correctly, you are implying that the GoP specifically sent in the military with the intention of massacring a certain group of people. My understanding of the events of the time is that the atrocities were not pre-planned, but the result of a progressive spiraling out of control of the situation on the ground, in which atrocities were committed by both sides, with Indian support for certain groups, and the results were what we see today.

The country was being torn apart, and India was seen to be neck deep in exacerbating the situation - isolation and desperation rose, discipline broke down, anger rose, and regrettable and condemnable events took place. I am by no means trying to suggest the GoP was not to blame, but the insinuation that we went in there to massacre people left and right is completely wrong.

 

[Flintlock]

Killing of Intellectuals one of the most brutal and savage carnages in the history of Bangladesh. It was a planned killing of the Bangali intellectuals- educationists, journalists, literateurs, physicians, scientists, lawyers, artists, philosophers and political thinkers - executed by a group of collaborators under the directive and guidance of the Pakistani military rulers during the war of liberation in 1971. The blue print of crippling the intelligentsia is said to have been chalked out by Major General Rao Farman Ali, the military adviser to the governor of East Pakistan. The armed cadres of al-badr, a para-military force, is alleged to have executed the brutal killing having been provided with arms and support by the Pakistan army.


The killing of the intellectuals virtually began with the army crackdown in Dhaka on the night of 25 March, and continued till the surrender of the Pak-army on 16 December 1971. The act of killing was initiated in Dhaka and gradually spread over the whole of East Pakistan especially in the district and subdivisional towns. The brutality and killing took a serious turn especially in Dhaka during the days preceding the surrender of the Pak army, particularly on 14 December, the day now commemorated as Shaheed Buddhijibi Hatya Dibash (Martyred Intellectuals Day).

The killers used to abduct and carry away the targetted victims from their houses in gestapo style to particular camps or spots very often covering their face with black cloth. They mostly took advantage of curfew in the city and kidnapped the victims. The victims were physically tortured, brutaly killed mostly by indiscriminate bayonet charges. The main spots of execution in Dhaka city were the marshy land at Rayerbazar near Mohammadpur and another at Mirpur, where a huge number of dead bodies were found scattered in the ditches, plains and inside the heaps of bricks. The dead bodies, eyes covered and hands tied, were found wounded and swelled all over their bodies and bullet shots on the chest, head or back.

The number of intellectuals killed is estimated as follows: educationist 991, journalist 13, physician 49, lawyer 42, others (litterateur, artist and engineer) 16. [Muazzam Hussain Khan]

BANGLAPEDIA: Killing of Intellectuals

_____________________________________________________________

Bangladesh, 1971

The war for liberation that broke out in March 1971 in Bangladesh stemmed from the election of the Awami League, which demanded independence for Bangladesh, in what was then East Pakistan. The genocidal "Operation Search Light" was carried out against Bengalis by the West Pakistan army as a response. The ten months of killing resulted in the deaths of an estimated 500,000 to 3 million people, mostly Hindus. "Kill three million of them," then-Pakistani President Yahya Khan reportedly said at the time, "and the rest will eat out of our hands." None of the Pakistani generals involved in the genocide has ever been brought to trial, and remain at large.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,338612,00.html

 

[Vinod2070]

You may have read the number in several publications, but that does not make it true, since the source itself is compromised and flawed. What we have attempted to do in the thread I mentioned is to try and counter that figure through empirical evidence, reasoning and accounts and estimates from other sources that contradict the 3 million figure.

If I gather your argument correctly, you are implying that the GoP specifically sent in the military with the intention of massacring a certain group of people. My understanding of the events of the time is that the atrocities were not pre-planned, but the result of a progressive spiraling out of control of the situation on the ground, in which atrocities were committed by both sides, with Indian support for certain groups, and the results were what we see today.

The country was being torn apart, and India was seen to be neck deep in exacerbating the situation - isolation and desperation rose, discipline broke down, anger rose, and regrettable and condemnable events took place. I am by no means trying to suggest the GoP was not to blame, but the insinuation that we went in there to massacre people left and right is completely wrong.

**** President Yahya said,
"Kill three million of them and the rest will eat out of our hands".

AM, This has been recorded in many places. Just google for it and you will find innumerable references.

And this order was dutifully carried out AFAIK.

The civil disturbance and all else was there but to deny the racial and religious character of the events would be a mistake.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Thanks for that entirely 'unbiased' and 'neutral' source.

Here is the Pakistani version:

"The Hamoodur Rahman Commission Report (HCR), denied the involvement of Pakistan army personnel in the murders of Bengalis. Gen. Farman Ali categorically denied the charge levelled against him that he had 200 intellectuals killed. The Bengali's claimed these killings occurred on December 14, and not on December 16 of 1971, as General Farman contends. While the latter accepts that a sizeable number of corpses were found on the morning of December 17, he maintains that Pakistani army personnel could not have conducted the killings since they had already surrendered on December 16. According to Maj. Gen. Farman Ali on December 9 or 10, 1971, he was summoned by Maj. Gen. Jamshed to Peelkhana. On reaching the headquarters he says, he saw a large number of vehicles parked there. Maj. Gen. Jamshed was getting into a car and asked Maj. Gen. Farman Ali to come along. On the way, Gen. Jamshed informed Gen. Farman that they were thinking of arresting certain people. Gen. Farman Ali maintains he advised against it. On reaching General Niazi's headquarters he says, he repeated his advice, but neither Gen. Niazi nor Gen. Jamshed responded. Gen. Farman Ali states that he does not know what transpired after he left, but he thinks no further action was taken."

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Vinod:

""The historian branch of the State Department held a two-day conference on June 28 and 29 on US policy in South Asia between 1961 and 1972, inviting scholars from India, Pakistan and Bangladesh to express their views on the declassified documents.

During the seminar, Bangladeshi scholars acknowledged that their official figure of more than 3 million killed during and after the military action was not authentic.

They said that the original figure was close to 300,000, which was wrongly translated from Bengali into English as three million.

Shamsher M. Chowdhury, the Bangladesh ambassador in Washington who was commissioned in the Pakistan Army in 1969 but had joined his country’s war of liberation in 1971, acknowledged that Bangladesh alone cannot correct this mistake. Instead, he suggested that Pakistan and Bangladesh form a joint commission to investigate the 1971 disaster and prepare a report.

Almost all scholars agreed that the real figure was somewhere between 26,000, as reported by the Hamoodur Rahman Commission, and not three million, the official figure put forward by Bangladesh and India.

Prof Sarmila Bose, an Indian academic, told the seminar that allegations of Pakistani army personnel raping Bengali women were grossly exaggerated.

Based on her extensive interviews with eyewitnesses, the study also determines the pattern of conflict as three-layered: West Pakistan versus East Pakistan, East Pakistanis (pro-Independence) versus East Pakistanis (pro-Union) and the fateful war between India and Pakistan.

Prof Bose noted that no neutral study of the conflict has been done and reports that are passed on as part of history are narratives that strengthen one point of view by rubbishing the other. The Bangladeshi narratives, for instance, focus on the rape issue and use that not only to demonize the Pakistan army but also exploit it as a symbol of why it was important to break away from (West) Pakistan.""
Sheikh Mujib wanted a confederation: US papers -DAWN - National; July 7, 2005

Note that while the link is a Pakistani newspaper, the original source of the information are declassified State Dept. documents.

 

[Flintlock]

^Duh. I don't expect Pakistani generals to admit that they killed these people.