CIA vaccination drive in Pakistan slammed by Red Cross: Will cost lives

[Awesome]

The U.S. regards the Red Cross as inviolate. However, the Taliban and other parties in Pakistan kidnap Red Cross workers for ransom, is that not so?

What sort of stupid nutjob logic is that, its like somebody saying (to give you an equal and opposite example) Hitler killed millions of Jews, so we can at least kill thousands of Jews.

The Red Cross does good work but those who know something of its history know it has had great moral faults in the past and continues to have them today. Turning a blind eye to terror group operations using the Red Cross as cover is a biggie.

Yeah yeah, blame the red cross. C'mon man, the polio vaccination program is something that all international health organizations have fought tooth and nail trying to convince everybody to bring their kids out. The red cross is not slamming the CIA, for its illegal work, its slamming them since they have now officially joined the ranks of baby killers by this action. A thousand Osamas were not worth messing around with a program specifically designed to save babies and toddlers.

 

[Elmo]

The Red Cross is not as apolitical as you seem to think it is. It allows terrorists to use Red Cross-marked ambulances as transport and denies Israel full membership and rights on political grounds.

Non sequitur. These numbers do not make sense.

The U.S. is indeed engaged in a conflict recognized by international law, but not with the Red Cross.
Sure, the terrorism of Al Qaeda doesn't justify anybody picking up a stick in self-defense, does it?

The important questions are (1) if this was a phony vaccination drive as opposed to a real one endorsed by the Red Cross that the CIA piggybacked upon, and (2), if it was phony, was it pretending to be under the auspices of the Red Cross by displaying its symbols? If so, then I think this is a prosecutable offense under U.S. law, those convicted paying a fine or serving up to six months' imprisonment.

What about the numbers does not make sense to you?

To elaborate, polio is only endemic in four countries in the world. In Pakistan there were 144 cases, in the other 3 countries the figure was probably one-tenth. Makes sense?

What does Red Cross not recorgnising Israel have to do with the CIA using a vaccination campaign for subversive activities?

Your logic is unclear.

Also, in your two options you seem to have missed out on a couple of words as they don't make sense. Right now it reads as if a 'yes' to both options is prosecutable. Do you intend to say that?

 

[Awesome]

That sounds familiar, if I change "doctor" to another certain name!

Although, I must admit, this time I would agree with you.

We've always heard about doctors saying they'll first and foremost do no harm. He's a scumbag in my books for violating the Hippocratic oath. Unfortunately we have a dime a dozen of these within our borders and they should all face the full brunt of the law.

 

[Solomon2]

What sort of stupid nutjob logic is that, its like somebody saying (to give you an equal and opposite example) Hitler killed millions of Jews, so we can at least kill thousands of Jews.

The claim was that the U.S. "has no regard" for the Red Cross and I have demonstrated that U.S. regard is miles better than that of the Taliban.

A thousand Osamas were not worth messing around with a program specifically designed to save babies and toddlers.

One, the alleged phony vaccination was apparently not polio, but hepatitis. Two, doesn't your attitude mean that all a terrorist has to do is take a few people hostage and the gov't is supposed to always give in to him rather than risk people's lives?

 

[Elmo]

One, the alleged phony vaccination was apparently not polio, but hepatitis. Two, doesn't your attitude mean that all a terrorist has to do is take a few people hostage and the gov't is supposed to always give in to him rather than risk people's lives?

And you think people realise the subtleties between polio and hepatitis?

They are AGAINST any vaccination campaign. Period.

It's taken them years and so many ulemas to be involved for them to let their children be vaccinated.

And if I am not mistaken, now they give hepatitis and polio vaccine to children at more or less the same time. It's called pentavalent.

 

[Solomon2]

What about the numbers does not make sense to you?

Because Pakistan is also "in the world" so the number of cases in Pakistan can't be higher than the world total.

What does Red Cross not recorgnising Israel have to do with the CIA using a vaccination campaign for subversive activities?

I dispute your use of "subversive". The U.S. is trying to destroy Al Qaeda, not the GoP. Not welcoming Israel into the Red Cross family illustrates that the ICRC has a historical bias against Jews and Israel, even if innocent peoples lives are at stake. link Biases against Israel often extend to those who support Israel - including the United States.

Right now it reads as if a 'yes' to both options is prosecutable. Do you intend to say that?

Not options, conditions. Yes, it may indeed be prosecutable in the U.S. But why do it? Can't you see a CIA official or two stepping forward, confessing their guilt, and then marching off to jail to serve their short sentences as heroic political prisoners facing down an abusive Red Cross?

 

[Solomon2]

And you think people realise the subtleties between polio and hepatitis?

Your call. All the Pakistanis I've met seem to be pretty smart people.

 

[Awesome]

The claim was that the U.S. "has no regard" for the Red Cross and I have demonstrated that U.S. regard is miles better than that of the Taliban.

One, the alleged phony vaccination was apparently not polio, but hepatitis. Two, doesn't your attitude mean that all a terrorist has to do is take a few people hostage and the gov't is supposed to always give in to him rather than risk people's lives?

#1: The US carried out an illegal operation. It violated Pakistan's sovereignty and no matter what killing of Osama is something illegal they did.
#2: Nothing in my attitude suggests anything about what we should or should not do about the terrorists, it just means don't jeopardize the good work people have spent DECADES working upon (I've literally been watching polio vaccinations all my life).
#3: It matters squat if they got in with the excuse of administering vaccines for the flu virus. Although Hep is probably just as bad.

Pakistan should break relations after this revelation not the other way round and jail the CIA operatives that are found from now on. Relations with baby killers is not worth having.

 

[Elmo]

Your call. All the Pakistanis I've met seem to be pretty smart people.

Honestly Solomon2 I thought you were way better than this.

It's not a war of word, it's about being realistic.

They are simple, tribal people we are talking about - people who live day by day, who are marred by poverty, have low or non-existent literacy rates, and just don't know at what pace the rest of the world is moving.

There are many people like them in small towns across the US as well, who live a cocooned existence.

Because Pakistan is also "in the world" so the number of cases in Pakistan can't be higher than the world total.
I dispute your use of "subversive". The U.S. is trying to destroy Al Qaeda, not the GoP. Not welcoming Israel into the Red Cross family illustrates that the ICRC has a historical bias against Jews and Israel, even if innocent peoples lives are at stake. link Biases against Israel often extend to those who support Israel - including the United States.

Not options, conditions. Yes, it may indeed be prosecutable in the U.S. But why do it? Can't you see a CIA official or two stepping forward, confessing their guilt, and then marching off to jail to serve their short sentences as heroic political prisoners facing down an abusive Red Cross?

You seem to have no argument whatsoever.

I think I explained the difference between Pakistan and the rest of the world in my second reply. Is that what you are hinging your argument on?

In destroying al-Qaeda, the US is destroying GoP as well. Now the two are not one and the same, so let's not even go down that alley.

Once again, what does Israel have to do with the current debate about the CIA, Pakistan and Red Cross? You are starting to sound like a hard core extremist who has to bring in the Israel angle into every debate.

Abusive Red Cross? Hmmmm... I think you should revisit the OP and the rest of the posts and try not to shift the focus away from the real issue.

In short, stop derailing the thread!

 

[Solomon2]

#1: The US carried out an illegal operation. It violated Pakistan's sovereignty and no matter what killing of Osama is something illegal they did.

Even the U.N. Secretary-General doesn't believe this to be the case. That's because under the binding post-9/11 resolutions Pakistan has a sovereign obligation to root out terrorists, terror groups, and terror havens. If it fails to make good faith efforts against a terror group it has no grounds for complaint when another U.N. member acts against them on Pakistani territory.

Nothing in my attitude suggests anything about what we should or should not do about the terrorists, it just means don't jeopardize the good work people have spent DECADES working upon (I've literally been watching polio vaccinations all my life).

That is a problem, and has been for generations. Look, instead of beating the U.S. for this - which improves nobody's health - you can market this, saying, "O.K., once we get everyone vaccinated the U.S. will never be able to get away with a vaccination scheme again."

Pakistan should break relations after this revelation not the other way round and jail the CIA operatives that are found from now on. Relations with baby killers is not worth having.

Oh, is that what you are leading up to? How do you manage to relate to the Pakistani Army, then, which killed so many babies in 1971? And who knows how many misdeeds it has covered up since then, maybe up to the present day?

 

[VCheng]

We've always heard about doctors saying they'll first and foremost do no harm. He's a scumbag in my books for violating the Hippocratic oath. Unfortunately we have a dime a dozen of these within our borders and they should all face the full brunt of the law.

I agree with you here 100%.

........

They are simple, tribal people we are talking about - people who live day by day, who are marred by poverty, have low or non-existent literacy rates, and just don't know at what pace the rest of the world is moving.

That is the worst part: Already poor and disadvantaged people will now be even more likely to have entirely preventable diseases blight their next generation as well.

As much as I defend the USA, in this case, the breach of trust over a critically needed immunization program hurts the most vulnerable children in Pakistan, and thus condemnable.

This ruse should not have been used, and if it was desperately needed with no other options, then its disclosure must have been firmly prevented.

 

[Solomon2]

Honestly Solomon2 I thought you were way better than this.

I have always said that I have never been to Pakistan.

They are simple, tribal people we are talking about - people who live day by day, who are marred by poverty, have low or non-existent literacy rates, and just don't know at what pace the rest of the world is moving.

Then I guess the international vaccination effort is unlikely to work unless Pakistan makes greater efforts at education. This is sad. According to my old Encyclopedia Britannica, Pakistan did not have a bad record in the 1960s when it came to public health matters. I guess such funds were eviscerated under Zia along with the rest of the education budget.

There are many people like them in small towns across the US as well, who live a cocooned existence.

The U.S. eliminated polio a long time ago.

In destroying al-Qaeda, the US is destroying GoP as well.

How? By saving Pakistani from Al Qaeda attacks? On the other hand, I strongly suspect the A-bad raid did prevent Kiyani from carrying out a coup, so not only did the U.S. nab Bin Laden but it also helped Pakistani democracy survive. Is that what you object to?

 

[Respect4Respect01]

where are all other "super" countries standing up for human rights.

 

[Oldman1]

The Taliban already targets ngos and other aid organizations. This action to find Osama doesn't make any difference. Just like terrorists using ambulances to sneak in weapons. Don't see why we should fight a fair war.

 

[Roybot]

where are all other "super" countries standing up for human rights.

What has this got to do with human rights Parents should be smart enough to get their kids vaccinated.