Changing times: Ijtihad and other questions Muslims must revisit

[jatt+gutts]

Dumbo PROPHET SAW had few exceptions he was allowed by ALLAH to marry more than 4 and that is mainly political decision and for that you have to understand Arab society in that society if you are some tribes relative they would listen to you and protect you other wise he remained married to first wife who was older than her for 25 years and HAZRAT MUHAMMAD SAW had to do more things than normal Muslims for him there was 6 compulsory prayers he fasted and didn't opened fast for many days buy follower off ignorance like you never understands @Jf Thunder

yep I am so dumb allah allowed the prophet as he was special after all muslims look upto him as perfect man who can do nothing wrong. whatever dude I really am amazed at your resilence and dedication to your religion.. proved wrong again n again yet keep believing in it.. if allah is real you may be awarded the heaven n all that written in book

 

[VCheng]

bibi ji .. see here you are openly bashing other religion although subly but have no patience to hear criticism of islam.. bibi ji to be very honest with you when you call islam a true religion even that is insulting to us.. because for us our religions are true religion.. next time you want others to respect your religion be respecting to other religions.. if hindus follow idol worhip so what it is to you. what if it turned out after death ganesha was a true god and what you follow is false... can you prove to me allah don't want idol worhip.. can you show me some recording of allah.. I am Sikh and we don't worship idols doesn't mean we keep on calling others religions false.
How can you point a finger at one and not the other? When in reality you guys dont accept Islam AT ALL....

It takes an enlightened mind to begin to appreciate what your are trying to say here, Sir.

 

[SarthakGanguly]

It is VERY UNFAIR to accept "from Islam" what is already part of you "CULTURE" (in red) and claim to be tolerant but never ACCEPT part of Islam that is not part of your culture and COMPLAIN we do not accept Hinduism...which is not part of Islamic culture....Do you see the hypocrisy?
How can you point a finger at one and not the other? When in reality you guys dont accept Islam AT ALL....
Basically Hindus dont tolerate us

Oh ok, I get it. You have veered entirely into matters of faith. Can't argue there.

Keeping fast was just one example, there are Hindus who visit dargas etc and do other stuff as well. Of course, you wouldn't agree that dargah etc is Islam. No offence but here's the thing - the kind of pure 'true' Islam that you are talking about is truly not tolerated in India. It is there but it's rare. This exclusivist attitude of asserting an Islamic Culture separated from Indian Culture is quite alien here and will remain so.

Also it is true that not only Hindus but (more so)Sikhs, Jains, Buddhists and even Christians (and many Muslims) find the 'true' folks far too incompatible with India and her composite civilization. We call them radicals/extremists and club them with Togadia. Google 'Togadia' and 'Owaisi' for examples. OTH Hindus are among the softest of all the communities in India. I also agree that the partition was a real boon in disguise.

We truly have become totally different people, I guess.

Please don't mind. I am only trying to be as honest as possible.

 

[Dubious]

openly bashing other religion

Thats not bashing...Its discussing...

And no one is spreading false propaganda...I openly asked him to present what he claims...stop foiling others!

subly but have no patience to hear criticism of islam

Critism? You bashed Pakistan! I quoted you to show ....Stop crying foul! Post reported for not only being non productive but also openly lying!

bibi ji to be very honest with you when you call islam a true religion even that is insulting to us

Only to a minority of closed minded fools coz even Jews claims this about Judaism and Christians about Christianity ....So please

because for us our religions are true religion

And how is this not insulting everyother religion? You see if you can say it so can others...So that kinda cancels any point you ever tried to make

next time you want others to respect your religion be respecting to other religions..

Can this be applied to you as well?

if hindus follow idol worhip so what it is to you. what if it turned out after death ganesha was a true god and what you follow is false...

People can worship who they want its nothing to me...Stop misquoting me! I answered @SarthakGanguly to something he asked read the context before babbling!

an you prove to me allah don't want idol worhip.. can you show me some recording of allah..

I dont need to prove to you as I clearly said I dont care who worships what...There is no use to jump in blind and start misquoting a conversation that started and has been going on for pages! May I remind you your own line:

next time you want others to respect your religion be respecting to other religions..

Can you on the other hand prove to me that ALLAH allowed it? Because I am happy with belief and I have no doubts about it nor did I question you yours...So your jumping in blind is again a showcase of your ignorance and also points out to a troll

I am Sikh and we don't worship idols doesn't mean we keep on calling others religions false.

Where did I say that? He asked me a question and I said this is what we believe...Now as usual if you want to misquote by taking out of context...It is not my fault!

How can you point a finger at one and not the other? When in reality you guys dont accept Islam AT ALL....

And you know soo much yet you are living in ignorance? In Islam for such people "who know more than average people" and dont follow ....the punishment is worse!

MIND YOU ....You have pathetically falsely claimed I didnt allow critisim in Islam when all you did was criticize it....But I def wont allow you to bash my country on an opportunity and then try to play safe...Here to prove what you did:

I hope Isis wil come knocking in Pakistan soon

So stop lying! Because this ^^ is who you really are!

 

[Dubious]

Oh ok, I get it. You have veered entirely into matters of faith. Can't argue there.
Keeping fast was just one example, there are Hindus who visit dargas etc and do other stuff as well. Of course, you wouldn't agree that dargah etc is Islam.

I only pointed out what is reality....
I know the fast was an example since you understood it that is why I also used that example....

Hindus visit Dargas and hence accepted Brailvi and Sufi who visit shrines and do the exact same....

Brailvi and Sufi will agree with you

No offence but here's the thing - the kind of pure 'true' Islam that you are talking about is truly not tolerated in India. It is there but it's rare.

Yes I know it isnt...Only the milawat (mied/ hybrid) is that is why I gave you examples from which you would understand

And also why Islam in Sub continent is very different from that in other parts of the World esp South East Asia and Africa.....West is dominated by Muslims from Sub continent and hence many bits are similar to sub continent EXCEPT of course those who learned Islam themselves (reverts)

This exclusivist attitude of asserting an Islamic Culture separated from Indian Culture is quite alien here and will remain so.

BTW, its not an attitude and no one is asserting anything but just wanting to practice Islam as it is not Islam as a form of Indian culture...Yes the pure form is alien and that is what I was pointing out ....It is this same form that you people start labeling coz you believe the mixed form is real when it is not and not found elsewhere except in those who came from sub continent...and this is where and why fights occur and why there are soooo many different sects in Islam.....

Also it is true that not only Hindus but (more so)Sikhs, Jains, Buddhists and even Christians (and many Muslims) find the 'true' folks far too incompatible with India and her composite civilization.

And that is the problem the intlerance of Indian community turned a religion into a mixed form of I dont know what ...

However they kept their true form of Sikhism, Jainism, Buddhism and well I am not sure of how Christianity in India is if there is differences and what not and how big of a difference....But it is rather UNFAIR that you practice true / pure form of YOUR religions but do not allow another religion to practice its true form....That is intolerance to the extreme ..I actually laugh when I see Indians bashing all over PDF about Pakistan's intolerance...while a worse scenario is available in India!

Changing a religion to suit your culture and then wondering why that religion is not yielding is really IMO kinda stupid! If you drink some diluted form of some medicine and wonder why you are not getting better as recommended...then I am sure you would call it stupid as well!

You people dont allow the pure form but EXPECT the pure results that are mentioned in the Quran....or that is preached...It is rather funny and weird at the same time!

We call them radicals/extremists and club them with Togadia.

Well, that is where your intolerance starts....You call them radicals coz you dont tolerate something new on your land!

Google 'Togadia' and 'Owaisi' for examples.

Not sure what Owaisi is propagating but he is more political than religious....

OTH Hindus are among the softest of all the communities in India. I also agree that the partition was a real boon in disguise.

Well that doesnt matter esp when they are not tolerant to anything new and prefer everything mixed with THEIR culture while THEY practice THEIR religion without mixture!...

We truly have become totally different people, I guess.

Yes...

Please don't mind. I am only trying to be as honest as possible.

Dont worry I dont mind Even I am trying to show the honest side to best of my knowledge!!

 

[Judge]

Good post, but unfortunately based off the faulty premise that "there is only one way to be right".

No Indic religion has that.
A core philosophy of Hinduism is that 'all rivers lead to the same ocean'.

The concept of 'one true religion' is not accepted by us. The ultimate goal for every human being is to attain personal spiritual peace and salvation - and whichever religion or practice does that for him is a true religion for him/her.

 

[VCheng]

No Indic religion has that.
A core philosophy of Hinduism is that 'all rivers lead to the same ocean'.

The concept of 'one true religion' is not accepted by us. The ultimate goal for every human being is to attain personal spiritual peace and salvation - and whichever religion or practice does that for him is a true religion for him/her.

I would avoid comparing complex belief systems such as religions due to the futility of such comparisons, but I can appreciate and respect your beliefs just the same.

 

[KingMamba]

Says who? Muslim sources? Jewish sources say otherwise. Now back to history and find out the real truth why only Jewish tribes were massacred and expelled for treachery.

So you take Jewish sources over Muslims sources? Heck even Christians sources agree with the Muslim account of how things went down although they attribute different motives to the Prophet PBUH. If Muslim sources are not sufficient for you then you are not a Muslim because much of what we know about the deen comes from our sources and if you are not a Muslim you of all people should be the last one telling us to practice ijtihad.

I am not a Muslim. But if a non muslim person, is so capable in his administrative capabilities, then y not make him PM or President? After all a state is administrative as agreed by you. Then y you argue, sensitive posts like PM or President should reside with muslim only, even if Real Islam is followed?

Afaik there is a difference between Head of state and head of government. In an Islamic country the head of state should obviously be a Muslim but any other position including head of government should be open to people of any faith as long as they fulfill the merits of the position.

but in today's world Ijtehaad has become very difficult, as even Ulemas cannot agree on everything nowadays

In today's world the Ulema themselves are the problem as well.

 

[Norwegian]

So you take Jewish sources over Muslims sources? Heck even Christians sources agree with the Muslim account of how things went down although they attribute different motives to the Prophet PBUH. If Muslim sources are not sufficient for you then you are not a Muslim because much of what we know about the deen comes from our sources and if you are not a Muslim you of all people should be the last one telling us to practice ijtihad.

No, I only said that Jewish sources say otherwise. I didn't say I do not believe in Muslim sources.

 

[KingMamba]

No, I only said that Jewish sources say otherwise. I didn't say I do not believe in Muslim sources.

Ok so which narrative was the reality in your opinion, pray tell me?

 

[Norwegian]

Ok so which narrative was the reality in your opinion, pray tell me?

Can't tell as I wasn't there when it happened. Although I a more leaning towards Muslim sources as they are also supported by Byzantine / Christian sources.

 

[SarthakGanguly]

I only pointed out what is reality....
I know the fast was an example since you understood it that is why I also used that example....

Hindus visit Dargas and hence accepted Brailvi and Sufi who visit shrines and do the exact same....

Brailvi and Sufi will agree with you




Yes I know it isnt...Only the milawat (mied/ hybrid) is that is why I gave you examples from which you would understand

And also why Islam in Sub continent is very different from that in other parts of the World esp South East Asia and Africa.....West is dominated by Muslims from Sub continent and hence many bits are similar to sub continent EXCEPT of course those who learned Islam themselves (reverts)

BTW, its not an attitude and no one is asserting anything but just wanting to practice Islam as it is not Islam as a form of Indian culture...Yes the pure form is alien and that is what I was pointing out ....It is this same form that you people start labeling coz you believe the mixed form is real when it is not and not found elsewhere except in those who came from sub continent...and this is where and why fights occur and why there are soooo many different sects in Islam.....



And that is the problem the intlerance of Indian community turned a religion into a mixed form of I dont know what ...

However they kept their true form of Sikhism, Jainism, Buddhism and well I am not sure of how Christianity in India is if there is differences and what not and how big of a difference....But it is rather UNFAIR that you practice true / pure form of YOUR religions but do not allow another religion to practice its true form....That is intolerance to the extreme ..I actually laugh when I see Indians bashing all over PDF about Pakistan's intolerance...while a worse scenario is available in India!

Changing a religion to suit your culture and then wondering why that religion is not yielding is really IMO kinda stupid! If you drink some diluted form of some medicine and wonder why you are not getting better as recommended...then I am sure you would call it stupid as well!

You people dont allow the pure form but EXPECT the pure results that are mentioned in the Quran....or that is preached...It is rather funny and weird at the same time!


Well, that is where your intolerance starts....You call them radicals coz you dont tolerate something new on your land!


Not sure what Owaisi is propagating but he is more political than religious....


Well that doesnt matter esp when they are not tolerant to anything new and prefer everything mixed with THEIR culture while THEY practice THEIR religion without mixture!...


Yes...

Dont worry I dont mind Even I am trying to show the honest side to best of my knowledge!!

Ok got you.

Regarding Indian dharmas/faiths and Christianity - there is considerable mixture. We have a pretty composite culture. There is no true form of Hinduism anyway, far too diverse for that. Plus all dharmic faiths like Hinduism, Jainism and Buddhist have and continue to evolve, or change with time. Sikhs would be more a little resistant to change. So following a true form is honestly - impossible. So it's not really intolerance. Even then the State respects a person to be a Salafi.

And we did not start calling them radicals just like that. Hell, we came to know about these terms very recently from people who state openly that this is a land of kufr and this and that (don't want to dirty this thread ) Following any faith peacefully is perfectly fine in a nation of 1.2 Billion people. If you come visit India sometime, you will get a better picture.

The concept of 'one true religion' is not accepted by us. The ultimate goal for every human being is to attain personal spiritual peace and salvation - and whichever religion or practice does that for him is a true religion for him/her.

@Akheilos - This more or less sums it up. But we don't impose it on those who don't believe it. Just expect them not to impose/threaten to impose it on us.

 

[Dubious]

Regarding Indian dharmas/faiths and Christianity - there is considerable mixture. We have a pretty composite culture. There is no true form of Hinduism anyway, far too diverse for that.

Oh so you even mixed Hinduism...SO basically you are a Nation living off a culture refusing any form of change of anything different to it? got it

Plus all dharmic faiths like Hinduism, Jainism and Buddhist have and continue to evolve, or change with time.

I would have the opinion they should.....coz many people claim these are like thousands of years old.....alot HAS changed since then!

Sikhs would be more a little resistant to change. So following a true form is honestly - impossible. So it's not really intolerance. Even then the State respects a person to be a Salafi.

I honestly have no idea what a Salafi is....nor does it matter to me coz like you said Indians will not accept something new...so that is probably also a mixture ...

And we did not start calling them radicals just like that. Hell, we came to know about these terms very recently from people who state openly that this is a land of kufr and this and that (don't want to dirty this thread )

Well thats what you get from mixtures...I guess coz Islam doesnt allow you to do that...


In my honest opinion Indians have no right to cry Islam is wrong because what they see is not even Islam its an Indian hybrid....you guys never even knew what was Islam coz before it came in you changed it...so if anything is wrong it is the hybrid you people created, right? You created a monster than you want to blame to original religion for its crimes is unspeakable!

Following any faith peacefully is perfectly fine in a nation of 1.2 Billion people.

And that is what Islam is about its from the root word salaam meaning peace..

If you come visit India sometime, you will get a better picture.

Sorry but I like my religion as GOD gave it to me not a man made mixture/ hybrid

Just my choice!

But we don't impose it on those who don't believe it. Just expect them not to impose/threaten to impose it on us.

Like I said


In my honest opinion Indians have no right to cry Islam is wrong because what they see is not even Islam its an Indian hybrid....you guys never even knew what was Islam coz before it came in you changed it...so if anything is wrong it is the hybrid you people created, right? You created a monster than you want to blame to original religion for its crimes is unspeakable!

The ultimate goal for every human being is to attain personal spiritual peace and salvation

THAT we also believe!

To you is your believe and to us is ours...

 

[SarthakGanguly]

Sorry but I like my religion as GOD gave it to me not a man made mixture/ hybrid

Yeah, that pretty much sums it up actually. We like the man made stuff.

In my honest opinion Indians have no right to cry Islam is wrong because what they see is not even Islam its an Indian hybrid

so if anything is wrong it is the hybrid you people created, right? You created a monster than you want to blame to original religion

No. You did not get it. There are plenty of places where pure Islam is followed. For example in Kashmir all Sufi shrines have been successfully blown up. In Hyderabad also a strict(as we call it) form of Islam is practiced. The 'Indian hybrid' is cherished. The Hyderabadi Islamists along with other Islamists from pockets all over the rest of India give us enough reason to ask uncomfortable questions.We are increasingly having problems with the practitioners of 'pure Islam' in India. Not the hybrid ones.

I hope I was clear this time.

But anyway - let's leave it at that.

 

[Dubious]

We like the man made stuff.

Another big difference!

There are plenty of places where pure Islam is followed.

Believe me not one! If it was followed we would know!

For example in Kashmir all Sufi shrines have been successfully blown up.

Is that called pure Islam? Like I said before Indians never allowed pure Islam to touch their soil...They made a hybrid the min it did...So that is another hybrid...

In Hyderabad also a strict(as we call it) form of Islam is practiced.

In Hyderabad a strict form of hybrid is practiced...I know that too well and it disgusts me that they call it Islam and try to propagate it to our borders!

The 'Indian hybrid' is cherished

Of course like I proved on this thread and you agreed you guys are intolerant you wont keep anything pure not even Hinduism...

The Hyderabadi Islamists along with other Islamists from pockets all over the rest of India give us enough reason to ask uncomfortable questions.

Again blaming Islam for your hybrid creation is not fair at all...