Babur 3 only a Stop-Gap, Pakistan needs real SLBM

[Cookie Monster]

You think development of SSBN is that easy bro its complex project we should develop SSN than SSGN with VLS and than SSBN

Wait so on one hand u say we don't need SLBMs bcuz enemy is right next door so we can cover them with cruise missile range and then u say we need nuclear powered submarines...what happened to enemy being right next door? We don't need the kind of range offered by a nuclear powered submarine, it would save a substantial amount of money to have conventional(diesel electric) submarines. That money can be used elsewhere. No need to spend unnecessarily as having that capability wouldn't give us much advantage against India.

 

[Ultima Thule]

As for the IR signature and RCS that u mentioned about a ballistic missile
So u don't think that cruise missiles have a comparable IR signature? I m not even going to bother explaining this further.

Where do get it? CM is subsonic, its has a extremely low IR RADAR signature, whereas BM has a high hyper-sonic speed it has a big IR signature because of air friction

 

[Hassan Guy]

Wait so on one hand u say we don't need SLBMs bcuz enemy is right next door so we can cover them with cruise missile range and then u say we need nuclear powered submarines...what happened to enemy being right next door? We don't need the kind of range offered by a nuclear powered submarine, it would save a substantial amount of money to have conventional(diesel electric) submarines. That money can be used elsewhere. No need to spend unnecessarily as having that capability wouldn't give us much advantage against India.

Nuclear propulsion would offer benefits , it is quite, powerful and efficient.
It would be a huge power boost for our submarine fleet.
It gives the navy the range and endurance it would need for a mission like hunting down something like an aircraft carrier.

Air independent diesel electric is good for coastal defence and A2/AD.

You think development of SSBN is that easy bro its complex project we should develop SSN than SSGN with VLS and than SSBN

Hopefully.

 

[Cookie Monster]

Where do get it? CM is subsonic, its has a extremely low IR RADAR signature, whereas BM has a high hyper-sonic speed it has a big IR signature because of air friction

Did u bother to read what I wrote? Here I'll help u along...this is what I wrote right above what u r quoting and taking out of context:
"The longest range a subsonic cruise missile can reach at the time is somewhere around 1000-1500km and not the 1500-2000km that u claim. To achieve that kind of a range that u mentioned with a cruise missile it would have to be a supersonic one."

To have the kind of range we would get with a ballistic missile from a cruise missile instead, it would have to be a supersonic cruise missile.

After clearly establishing their range comparison(ballistic missile with supersonic cruise missile) then the statement followed(that u quoted and so conveniently took out of context) saying that they(ballistic missile[in terminal stage] and a supersonic cruise missile) would have a comparable IR signature. The supersonic cruise missile would get heated due to friction with air just as a re-entry vehicle would hence a comparable IR signature.

Based on the amount of emojis u use to try and prove ur point instead of facts makes me think that u r just some kid. I don't even know why I'm bothering to explain bcuz from my experience on PDF, idiots will be idiots.

 

[Ultima Thule]

Wait so on one hand u say we don't need SLBMs bcuz enemy is right next door so we can cover them with cruise missile range and then u say we need nuclear powered submarines...what happened to enemy being right next door? We don't need the kind of range offered by a nuclear powered submarine, it would save a substantial amount of money to have conventional(diesel electric) submarines. That money can be used elsewhere. No need to spend unnecessarily as having that capability wouldn't give us much advantage against India.

cruise missiles are stealthier than Ballistic missile accept this fact bro we should develop something like this bro
http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/systems/acm.htm
AGM-129 Advanced Cruise Missile [ACM]
Specifications

Origin General Dynamics / McDonnel Douglas (now Boeing Missile Systems)
Powerp lant Williams International F112-WR-100 turbofan
Guidance Inertial, with TERCOM update
Warhead W80-1 nuclear
Length 20 ft 10 in (6.84 m)
Body Width 2 ft 3.75 in (50.8 cm)
Body Height 25.27 in (64.19cm)
Wingspan 10 ft 2 in (3.34 m)
Weight 3,709 lbs (1680 kg)
Range 1,865 mi (3,000 km)

 

[Pandora]

Drone is a reusable cruise missile. We need a stealth cruise missile with a nuke delivery capability. It will be ultimate weapon for current time. no one will know what or from where they were hit.


Look it is difficult to develop a fifth gen multi role fighter jet.Cruise missile can be developed easily and can be more stealthy than a jet. Anti missile systems are radar based and IR based. avoid those sensors and no one can stop it.

View attachment 368755
This is a stealth drone we just need to put a nuke in there. We have turbo fan jet engine tech. We have RAM tech from the crashed US chopper in Abbotabad. this is a drone. If converted to cruise missile more stealth can be achieved.

There is more to developing Stealth aircraft than have RAM and good enigiene. The precision required to millimeters in cutting and molding is just not available in pakistan. We should first try to work on basics rather than dreaming about something that is decades ahead of us in terms of technology. If it was so simple then many developed countries would have already developed the technology. The design phase alone requires unmatched supercomputing power which cannot be achieved in pakistan.

 

[Ultima Thule]

Did u bother to read what I wrote? Here I'll help u along...this is what I wrote right above what u r quoting and taking out of context:
"The longest range a subsonic cruise missile can reach at the time is somewhere around 1000-1500km and not the 1500-2000km that u claim. To achieve that kind of a range that u mentioned with a cruise missile it would have to be a supersonic one."

To have the kind of range we would get with a ballistic missile from a cruise missile instead, it would have to be a supersonic cruise missile.

After clearly establishing their range comparison(ballistic missile with supersonic cruise missile) then the statement followed(that u quoted and so conveniently took out of context) saying that they(ballistic missile[in terminal stage] and a supersonic cruise missile) would have a comparable IR signature. The supersonic cruise missile would get heated due to friction with air just as a re-entry vehicle would hence a comparable IR signature.

Based on the amount of emojis u use to try and prove ur point instead of facts makes me think that u r just some kid. I don't even know why I'm bothering to explain bcuz from my experience on PDF, idiots will be idiots.

and you are super intelligent supersonic cruise missiles have least Range and almost all subsonic cruise missiles have longest range i can show a examples of both cases you are nothing but keyboard worrier go kid this place is not for yours go play your toys

 

[Cookie Monster]

Nuclear propulsion would offer benefits , it is quite, powerful and efficient.
It would be a huge power boost for our submarine fleet.
It gives the navy the range and endurance it would need for a mission like hunting down something like an aircraft carrier.

Air independent diesel electric is good for coastal defence and A2/AD.


Hopefully.

Modern AIP diesel electric diesel submarines have enough range to do more than just coastal defence and A2/AD. A concept design proposed by DCNS called SMX Ocean offers 18000 mile range and the ability to be submerged for 90 days before they have to surface to resupply (all of this at least on paper). This is more than sufficient as a platform for a credible second strike capability. Also it's a giant(in its category) submarine, which is better bcuz that way it can hold more SLBMs. If Pakistan could get something similar to this from China it would be a much better alternative since it's operating/maintenance cost would be much less than a nuclear powered one.

and you are super intelligent supersonic cruise missiles have least Range and almost all subsonic cruise missiles have longest range i can show a examples of both cases you are nothing but keyboard worrier go kid this place is not for yours go play your toys

U can keep thinking that subsonic cruise missiles have greater ranges than supersonic cruise missiles that's fine with me. If someone wishes to continue their stupidity I don't object to it.

 

[Basel]

We need both SLBM and SLCM since they are complementary and can be used for different purposes: SLCM to take out high value targets while SLBM for strategic second strike. SLCM is more expensive while and SLBM with high velocity and manoeuvring and multiple warheads can evade ABM systems. The target should be SLCM > 1500 km while SLBM with > 3500 km

Gradually Pakistan have to develop advance SLCM with range of 4000km, because it will be safer for sub to launch it 2000km away from Indian coast to avoid Indian ASW platforms specially P-8I because they can reach search area that far quickly and can stay there for while and are potent threat, and to launch SLCMs, SSGN will be good to have, SSBN with 6500km BM (MIRV/MaRV or HGV payload) should be next step if possible, it will make things difficult for Indian BMD.

cruise missiles are stealthier than Ballistic missile accept this fact bro we should develop something like this bro
http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/systems/acm.htm
AGM-129 Advanced Cruise Missile [ACM]
Specifications

Origin General Dynamics / McDonnel Douglas (now Boeing Missile Systems)
Powerp lant Williams International F112-WR-100 turbofan
Guidance Inertial, with TERCOM update
Warhead W80-1 nuclear
Length 20 ft 10 in (6.84 m)
Body Width 2 ft 3.75 in (50.8 cm)
Body Height 25.27 in (64.19cm)
Wingspan 10 ft 2 in (3.34 m)
Weight 3,709 lbs (1680 kg)
Range 1,865 mi (3,000 km)
View attachment 368952
View attachment 368955
View attachment 368957

I don't know why Raad design is not inspired or copied from this stealthy CM?

 

[Ultima Thule]

U can keep thinking that subsonic cruise missiles have greater ranges than supersonic cruise missiles that's fine with me. If someone wishes to continue their stupidity I don't object to it.

you have no answer for me kid you are speechless i give you one example than show me yours you acting like a 8year old kid with no knowledge about cruise missiles kid go to sleep

 

[Hassan Guy]

Gradually Pakistan have to develop advance SLCM with range of 4000km,

Impossible.

Our Ballistic Missiles don't even go near that range.

 

[Ultima Thule]

Impossible.

Our Ballistic Missiles don't even go near that range.

not relates it to BM bro, if we try we can get this figure why not?

 

[BHarwana]

There is more to developing Stealth aircraft than have RAM and good enigiene. The precision required to millimeters in cutting and molding is just not available in pakistan. We should first try to work on basics rather than dreaming about something that is decades ahead of us in terms of technology. If it was so simple then many developed countries would have already developed the technology. The design phase alone requires unmatched supercomputing power which cannot be achieved in pakistan.

I think you have under estimated the skill set available in Pakistan. Regarding the Super computers for Designing. there are computer in the private sector that are capable of work flow of metal and shapes and designs. Our issue is not the computer or technology. Our issue that Gov is not involving the private sector to take incentive in the tech development. There are hundred of designers in Pakistan that have the knowledge of developing such tech, but those people don't have the resources or funding to implement the knowledge they have and if some individual goes for it there is no confirmation that the gov will provide them any reward for their achievement.

 

[Pandora]

I think you have under estimated the skill set available in Pakistan. Regarding the Super computers for Designing. there are computer in the private sector that are capable of work flow of metal and shapes and designs. Our issue is not the computer or technology. Our issue that Gov is not involving the private sector to take incentive in the tech development. There are hundred of designers in Pakistan that have the knowledge of developing such tech, but those people don't have the resources or funding to implement the knowledge they have and if some individual go for it there is no confirmation that the gov will provide them any reward for their achievement.

You are comparing commercial fabrication with precision metal design and production. Secondly we dont have any supercomputers available for high end simulation. All high performace super computer require billions of dollars in investment. I would give you an example that we dont have a supercomputer which even has half of processing capacity currently being used by US or China or Japan or most of other countries capable of developing stealth.

We dont have any specialised training institutes/ education programmes/ very capable universities. I can count on my fingers number of universities which are capable to perform some good research otherwise rest are just teaching crap of ultimate propotions. Even if we have someone to do this kind of reasearch then what makes you think that any private player would invest billions of dollars in a limited sector? US spent over a trillion dollars on R&D OF f-35. Although data from chinese research in not available but even if we assume that they spent 500 billion dollars in R&D then that is out of our league. Like i said stop grasping at fantasies and rather focus on reality.

We also have areas we are good at like particle physics and nuclear physics mainly because of decades of exposure in that field. These areas were developed after spending billions in nuclear programme so i hope you get the point otherwise i have nothing further to add here.

 

[Cookie Monster]

you have no answer for me kid you are speechless i give you one example than show me yours you acting like a 8year old kid with no knowledge about cruise missiles kid go to sleep

Look up Burya(USSR) and RSS-40 Buran(USSR)

Burya range: 8000-8500km
"the daring concept for an intercontinental missile was the second stage, which was powered by a ramjet engine at its operational speed of Mach 3."
"The first stage was a ballistic-rocket-derived booster, which accelerated the Burya to altitude and the speed necessary to ignite its ramjet engine: a ramjet does not operate below subsonic speeds"
"Successful tests were achieved after official cancellation of the project, when it continued as a technology demonstration. It was a casualty, like the USAF Navaho, of the greater simplicity and relative invulnerability to interception of intercontinental ballistic missiles."

RSS-40 Buran: 8500km
two prototypes were developed but never flight tested and it was cancelled in 1957 in favor of R-7 Semyorka since they considered ICBMs unstoppable.

The above two intercontinental cruise missiles were developed in the 50s. The only reason no country pursued them further was bcuz they favored ICBMs. The interest is back in this area though. US/Russia/China are now developing hypersonic cruise missiles based on hypersonic glide vehicles using scramjet engines.

Link below if image doesnt show up.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_X-51#/media/File:X-51A_Waverider_on_B-52_2009.jpg

The limits to subsonic cruise missile ranges has to do with physics. Burya relied on ramjet to achieve such a range and just like that X51 and others would be relying on scramjet to achieve even greater ranges and for that u need speed beyond subsonic speeds.

No amount of ur personal wishes are going to change facts.