Argentina's Jet Fighter Replacement Options Narrow ?

[illusion8]

It fit the Argy needs & beside at least Pakistan already has a potential buyers for the plane. Can't say the same for the Indian.

Of course. Kaiser Tufail is bang on target in this article.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

UK has deployed Eurofighter Tyohoons on Falklands Islands

That is why it is opposing the sale of Gripen but will NOT mind
if Argentina gets JF 17

Typhoon can take care of JF 17

 

[Reashot Xigwin]

UK has deployed Eurofighter Tyohoons on Falklands Islands

That is why it is opposing the sale of Gripen but will NOT mind
if Argentina gets JF 17

Typhoon can take care of JF 17

Typhoon can also take care of Gripen just as easily.

 

[+4vsgorillas-Apebane]

'Short-legged'??

Ooops! Pakistanis describe it as one of the best aircraft in the world and even compare it to the SU-30! But the truth lies elsewhere I guess!

Short legged means short range you

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

'Short-legged'??

Ooops! Pakistanis describe it as one of the best aircraft in the world and even compare it to the SU-30! But the truth lies elsewhere I guess!

Short Legged but in production. It is such a big achievement that Indian Navy printed it on one of their advertisement.

This Aircraft would be for the Argentine Air force that is tasked to secure the airspace of Argentina. Mig 29 can be procured for the Argentine Navy that operates an Aircraft Carrier for long range strike roles. They both use the same engine so it would compliment far more than the requirement.

 

[Manticore]

ARGENTINA IS SEEN AS POTENTIAL BUYER OF SINO-PAKISTANI JF-17 FIGHTER, A RELATIONSHIP THAT COULD LEAD, IN THE FUTURE, THE CHINESE STEALTH FIGHTER J-31 EXPORT. OTHER INTERESTED COUNTRY IS NIGERIA
-
Report published in The Diplomat this Friday, December 5, finally speculates the Sino-Pakistani JF-17 fighter will have their first export customers, including Argentina and Nigeria, as far as such purchases could lead.
JF-17 no almoço e J-31 no jantar para os famintos caçadores argentinos | Poder Aéreo - Informação e Discussão sobre Aviação Militar e Civil
The single-engine fighter JF-17, developed by China and Pakistan, is conceptually a kind of modern MiG-21. Given the deterioration of the air forces of several countries after the end of the Cold War, the idea seemed good: a low-cost game which does not present major technical challenges, serving as a cheap option to revitalize many forces. But like many other projects of the type, "maybe good enough" JF-17 fighter has yet to conquer ministries of defense that are fixated in prestige and technology.

The change of luck seems to come now, with some countries showing interest in Sino-Pakistani fighter. Argentina is an example.The South American country urgently needs retooling its fleet of fighters, which is also equipped with some of the same aircraft that fought the War of the Falklands / Malvinas.

Unfortunately for Argentina, the United Kingdom shall exercise all the vetoes that can of shopping in Europe. The transnational nature of modern aerospace industry, especially in the European defense sector, allows multiple possibilities of vetoes in defense agreements.UK companies provide American fighter F-35 components, Eurofighter Typhoon and the European Saab Gripen, and London lost no time in countering the potential Argentine shopping fighters, also applying pressure on US manufacturers.

This leaves few options for Argentina, which may turn to Russia or China. At the time, the Argentine government seems to talk to both.



Apparently, Nigeria also expressed some interest in JF-17. His Air Force is a small organization with few dedicated combat aircraft, and has been supporting in Chengdu F-7 fighter (Chinese clone of the MiG-21). The JF-17 was heavily influenced by F-7 in its development, with some features of the latter, which could be ideal for Nigeria. The publication Jane's has reported that Nigerians could acquire up to 40 copies, which would mean a big boost to its air force and future possibilities of export of hunting.

For its part, the Russian fighters are positioned just above the possibilities for countries like Nigeria or Argentina. If they buy the aircraft, other countries like Venezuela and Egypt might be interested.

Another important factor is that if the purchase of JF-17 fighters will lead to a stronger relationship between China and a client, another game is on the horizon, the fifth-generation J-31, developed by the Chinese to serve the foreign market. An Argentine Air Force satisfied with its JF-17 may consider a future purchase of J-31, and it is important to note that success stories in the arms market come with well-constructed relations. Thus, a selling JF-17 can be understood as the beginning of a "high-low mix" Chinese fighters.

 

[Echo_419]

Argentina's Jet Fighter Replacement Options Narrow

Nov. 30, 2014 - 10:46AM |
By JOSÉ HIGUERA and USMAN ANSARI

It also raised the prospect of Argentina purchasing fighters from Russia or China, experts said.

While Gripens are made by Saab of Sweden, about 30 percent of the aircraft contains parts supplied by the UK, Argentina’s longtime foe.

On Oct. 31, Argentina’s defense minister announced an interest in purchasing 24 Gripens. According to a senior military source in Buenos Aires, the proposal to sell 24 Gripen fighters, at a cost of US $2.9 billioncame as an initiative of the Brazil’s Ministry of Defense and was briefly discussed and accepted by its Argentine counterpart. In October, Brazil signed a deal to purchase 36 Gripens.

The same source pointed out that Saab, the original builder and owner of the design of the Gripen, “never made any attempt to offer the aircraft directly, neither new nor second-hand, possibly because the firm’s officials knew that the UK would block any sale to Argentina.”

In recent years Saab has provided Argentina with other weapon systems, including its RBS-70 man portable air defense system (MANPADS) and AT4 anti-tank rockets, which do not include British components.

After Britain balked at the transfer of Gripens to Argentina, local commentators pointed out that the failure of previous attempts to acquire surplus Mirage F-1s from Spain and refurbished Kfirs from Israel was also the result of diplomatic interference by London.

But, according to Emilio Meneses, a defense analyst based at Santiago, the reasons Buenos Aires failed to take earlier measures to replace its old Mirages, which were procured both new and second-hand in the 1970s and ’80s, “are more related to local politics and fiscal finances than to any kind of foreign intervention.”

Defense budgets have been systematically reduced in Argentina since the mid-1980s. The military dictatorship, after being defeated in its attempt to take the Falkland Islands by force, was forced to restore democracy and to give back power to an elected civilian government.

“In that scenario, where cutting budgets was seen by the public as a sort of fair punishment over the armed forces, the political authorities found it easy to underfund the military,” Meneses said.

The underfunding of the armed forces reached an all time low in 2003, when President Nestor Kirchner came in office. Kirchner’s policies were continued by his wife, Cristina Fernandez, who was elected president in 2007.

The senior military source in Buenos Aires said Spain started to offer its surplus Mirage F-1s in 2008, but Fernandez rejected the request of funding to procure those jet fighters. The aircraft were offered again late in 2012, when the serviceability of the remaining older Mirages in the Argentine inventory had reached a critical level.

But the Argentine government failed to grant the funding to procure the Mirage F1s in time. The Spanish capacity to provide airworthiness certification for the fighter jets, as required by the very strict Argentine regulations, ended.

The option to get such certification from France was very expensive, as the French government and industry were more interested in persuading Argentina to take surplus Mirage 2000s instead.

As a result, the Spanish Mirage F-1s were discarded and negotiations to procure a number of refurbished Israel Aerospace Industries Kfir fighter jets started. The negotiations suffered from a lack of support from Argentina’s higher levels of government, and the Air Force also had some misgivings about the aging Israeli machines. As result of both, the negotiations stalled.

As for what may happen now, the local military source pointed out that France has had a long-standing interest to sell some of its used Mirage 2000s, which are modern enough and by being single-engine fulfills one of the basic requirements of the Argentine Air Force.

The source also underlined that the Air Force prefers Western aircraft, but would be willing to consider a Russian option if the West doesn’t provide a solution.

A Russian solution would be financially convenient for cash-strapped Argentina, as President Vladimir Putin, who made an official visit to Buenos Aires last September, offered to accept beef, wheat and other food goods as payment for military equipment.

The China Option
Yet some analysts believe there is another path.

Analysts such as author and former air commodore Kaiser Tufail said China’s FC-1/JF-17 is well-suited to Argentina’s operational requirements when considering acquisition and operating costs, as well as an increasing range of advanced weaponry.

“I believe that, given Argentina’s serious financial troubles, the FC-1/JF-17 would be just the right choice,” he said. “Despite the aircraft being short-legged, it is cheap and can be bought in large numbers.”

Similarly, analyst Haris Khan of the Pakistan Military Consortium think tank said Argentina’s occasionally difficult relations with Western nations and inability to modernize its airpower since 1982 means the FC-1/JF-17 should be all the more attractive.

“Argentina’s Air Force needs urgent replacements and FC-1/JF-17 very much fits the bill. It is more or less embargo free since it has almost zero parts involved from Western nations/NATO member states,” he said.

Chinese officials reportedly offered the FC-1 to Argentina last year at the Paris Air Show, and even offered an option of local assembly, but the Argentineans were apparently more tempted by offers of surplus Mirage F-1s from France and Spain respectively, and also an Israeli offer of Kfir Block 60s, before these options fell out of favor.

Argentina has a growing defense relationship with China that has seen it start to co-produce the Changhe Z-11, the CZ-11 Pampero, which is based on the Eurocopter A350 Ecureuil (Squirrel).

The CZ-11 program is part of Argentina’s bid to build up its aviation industry, therefore the offer of local production of the FC-1/JF-17 could still be tempting.

“I’m not sure what the base line of the local production capacity is, but this might be one of the avenues to have Argentina buy this aircraft. China has been very impressive with the line of weapons it has tabled in the past few years and it might just be able to fulfill all of Argentina’s requirements,” Khan said.

However, notwithstanding the FC-1/JF-17’s merits vis-a-vis Argentina’s operational requirements and its low operating costs, and despite China being Argentina’s second largest trading partner, plus its support for Argentina’s claim over the Falkland Islands, analysts acknowledge politics may yet impede a deal, especially considering the strength of an alternative Russian offer.

Brian Cloughley, former Australian defense attache to Islamabad, believes the Russians may win.

“The FC-1/JF-17 is an excellent system, and Argentina could do worse than equip its Air Force accordingly, but the devil is in the detail, and given Russia’s concentration on expanding its trade and general economic cooperation with South American nations, it is likely that Moscow could offer a very good deal involving provision of Flankers.”

Nevertheless, Tufail does not think that purchasing Russian aircraft, such as members of the Flanker family, would be of much practical benefit to Argentina.

“Russian fighters would most certainly be unaffordable in large numbers and would merely be showpieces,” he said. “Also going in favor of the FC-1/JF-17 is the demonstrated operational status with an important air force like the [Pakistani Air Force].

“A BVR weapons fit would be an irresistible icing on the package,” he added, referencing the SD-10A beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile currently arming Pakistani JF-17s.

Given the efforts the British have put into denying Argentina advanced aircraft, Cloughley, who started his military career in the British Army, said Britain’s diplomatic efforts to deny Argentina the chance to modernize its airpower may have backfired by pushing it into the arms of China and Russia.

He said the British may now be more worried at the threat to their military supremacy.

“It is little wonder the British are worried, because, given the savage defense cuts of all governments that have reduced the armed forces to near impotence, the Argentineans could probably take over the Falklands if they had some more modern equipment,” he said. “In practical terms, the numbers of Argentinean aircraft would not matter a great deal, because the British couldn’t get there to defend the islands, anyway.” ■

Email: jhiguera@defensenews.com; uansari@defensenews.com.

Shouldn't they be fixing their economy first

 

[Secur]

'Short legged' means short of being perfect. In other words, second best. Nothing to do with 'engines', for crying out loud!!!

Nyet. In this context, short legged doesn't hint at being short from perfect, but rather having short range or to be specific, combat radius and since Argentina is an extremely large country area wise, that is the most likely explanation. The term used is more than common when speaking of aircraft. This isn't an English class going on, try to get attention elsewhere.

 

[araz]

Typhoon can also take care of Gripen just as easily.

Not according to some of the Ex RAF pilots I have talked to. They ha e a genuine fear of the Gripen which they class in the same league(generation wise). Their concern is they cannot see the smaller fighter at a long enough distance to get the first shot.My 2 paisas worth.
Araz

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

Not according to some of the Ex RAF pilots I have talked to. They ha e a genuine fear of the Gripen which they class in the same league(generation wise). Their concern is they cannot see the smaller fighter at a long enough distance to get the first shot.My 2 paisas worth.
Araz

Is it not the training that is also a limiting factor. Some time back in one of the threads regarding PAF and foreign training read that NATO pilots rely more on BVR then close combat.

 

[Manticore]

Two to Tango? Argentina Looking Everywhere for New Warplanes
Two to Tango? Argentina Looking Everywhere for New Warplanes

 

[Donatello]

Brush up your English if you wanna have a duel with me!

'Short legged' means short of being perfect. In other words, second best. Nothing to do with 'engines', for crying out loud!!!


No grouse there, but I just wanted to put on record why most Pakistanis try to compare the JF with the SU-30. There are a gazillion threads on this!

People don't compare JF-17 with Su30 on basis of paper specs, but actual usefulness, because they are two different classes of fighters. However, the advent of BVR technology means that a JF-17 will see the Su30 at about the same distance as the Su30 will see JF-17. That is fact
A JF-17 can score a kill on Su30........once it does that all of that twin engine, twin pilot, heavy weight argument is put to waste. Simple.

Same as a S-300 blowing an f-16 out of the sky. A million dollar missile knocks out a 60 million dollar plane.
Or a 1 million dollar anti ship missile, knocks out a 400 million dollar frigate.

 

[OrionHunter]

People don't compare JF-17 with Su30 on basis of paper specs, but actual usefulness, because they are two different classes of fighters. However, the advent of BVR technology means that a JF-17 will see the Su30 at about the same distance as the Su30 will see JF-17. That is fact
A JF-17 can score a kill on Su30........once it does that all of that twin engine, twin pilot, heavy weight argument is put to waste. Simple.

Same as a S-300 blowing an f-16 out of the sky. A million dollar missile knocks out a 60 million dollar plane.
Or a 1 million dollar anti ship missile, knocks out a 400 million dollar frigate.

Agreed! BVR combat has taken away the thrill of dog fights!

 

[Reashot Xigwin]

Shouldn't they be fixing their economy first

Ayup...

 

[SQ8]

Brush up your English if you wanna have a duel with me!

'Short legged' means short of being perfect. In other words, second best. Nothing to do with 'engines', for crying out loud!!!

Actually your English is far from brushed up school level(unless off course we count the brush as a sweep..where you sweep your own shortcomings under the carpet). .
Short legged applies in its adjective sense here as something that does not last too long, in this case the fuel supply or range of the aircraft

Agreed! BVR combat has taken away the thrill of dog fights!

Incorrect again. It is NOT Beyond Visual Range engagements that have taken the thrill out of dogfights. A dogfight or Within Visual range engagement can STILL occur even with BVR weapons present on the aircraft. Since BVR has NOTHING to do with WVR engagements.

What has taken the thrill out of the dogfight are missiles with high manoeuvrability such as the R-73, Aim-9x, A-Darter, IRIS-T combined with the helmet mounted display. Essentially they no longer require the nose to be pointed at an aircraft or such positioning to employ. Moreover, their high lethality all but ensures a kill. So, tomorrows close in combat will be at best avoided with both adversaries are carrying such weapons. Instead of rolling around in circles, aircraft will now "joust".. or run in close, fire and run away.. Because chances are if they have survived one missile by some miracle, there is another one heading for them.