A Muslim majority Indus Valley Civilization?

[Hyde]

Somehow I didn't find that funny. We may have our differences, but we don't have to wish nuclear war on anyone.

He is thinking after 1000 years but he is already been nuked by me..

 

[Riyadh Haque]

Rusty Said: ".....And Pakistan will always have a special spot for any and all Muslims, be they Arabs or Indonesians. We Identify more with people Morocco then from India because we both have similar value structure and we have a common religion....."

I agree completely. The only Muslims who disagree that Pakistan has a "special spot" are the Bangladeshi. I suppose it was a historical mistake on our part that we were just too busy identifying with Moroccans to be paying any attention to the grievances of the Bengalees. It is especially a pity given that we have a similar value structure and a religion that is in common with the Bangladeshis.

In any case, how are the Bangladeshis doing vis-a-vis our country? Please read the following---

Economic Disparity Between Bangladesh & Pakistan

Economic gap between East and West Pakistan in 1960s is often cited as a key reason for the secessionist movement led by Shaikh Mujib's Awami League and the creation of Bangladesh in 1971. This disparity has grown over the last 40 years, and the per capita income in Pakistan now stands at 1.7 times Bangladesh's in 2011, slightly higher than 1.6 as it was in 1971.

Forty years after the Fall of Dhaka and the creation of Bangladesh on Dec 16, 1971, there's still much talk about it. The Daily Star, a Bangladeshi newspaper, has published a piece on the subject by Akbar Ali Khan marking the 40th anniversary of Bangladeshi independence. In his Op ED, Mr. Khan argues that "political independence provided much more conducive environment for growth in Bangladesh than united Pakistan. Though economic growth in East Pakistan was revived during Ayub Khan's so-called decade of reforms, growth rate in erstwhile East Pakistan was much lower than that of West Pakistan".

In his zeal to rationalize independence based on the economic argument, Mr. Khan has clearly ignored the following facts:

1. In 1969-70, the ratio of per capita incomes between West and East Pakistan was 1.6, as detailed by Mr. Khan. In 2011, however, this ratio has increased to 1.7, according to the IMF data.

2. Bangladesh is still categorized by the World Bank among low income and least developed countries of the world, while Pakistan is a middle income country and classified well above the list of least developed countries of the world.

3. Bangladesh is ranked as 11th poorest country in the world by the World Bank in terms of the percentage of population living on $1.25 or less a day. Neighboring India is the 14th poorest on this list, while Pakistan does not show up on it. The rest of the nations on this list are all in sub-Saharan Africa.

4. In 1947, East Pakistan started with a lower economic base than West Pakistan, and the loss of its Hindu Bengali business elite in 1947 left it worse off. It also didn't have the benefit of the large number of Muslim businessmen who migrated to West Pakistan, particularly Karachi, after partition of India in 1947.

5. Pakistani economist Dr. Ishrat Husain explains it well when he says that "although East Pakistan benefited from Ayub’s economic reforms in 1960s, the fact that these benefits were perceived as a dispensation from a quasi-colonial military regime to its colony—East Pakistan—proved to be lethal."

 

[reformistani]

Zafarullah Khan is not a pashtun but a baluch... Pakistans national anthem is in persianised urdu and written by Hafeez Jullundhri ... benazir bhuttos mother was of kurdish origin while her father is a sindhi rajput hence shes not of "persian" origin ... etc..... i dint read all the article... but what is mughalai cuisine?

Boss,

Nusrat Ispahnie was born in 1929 in Esfahan, Iran, hailing from the wealthy Hariri Esfahani family in Esfahan. She was said to be of Kurdish descent. However, the Kurdish connection only comes from her grandmother who had married into the Hariri family. Hence Benazir is partially kurdish. The family was of mostly persian origin and culturally persian.

I researched the national anthem. The first iteration? was indeed composed by a Hindu gentleman by name of Jagan Nath Azad at the request of Quaid-e-Azam. I understand subsequent versions were written by Jullundhri. This is not meant to be an 'argument' but knowledge-share.

Here is the source: Jagan Na

I stand corrected on Z. Khan, indeed a son of the Baloch people not Pushtun. Nevertheless, a son of Pakistan.

Regards.

Good points. I still think Bangladesh deserves some credit. We did them wrong. They have done well since 1971 and I think we can learn from both our mistakes and from the people of bangladesh. Whatever wrong was done upon them is not representative of the ordinary people of Pakistan.

Rusty Said: ".....And Pakistan will always have a special spot for any and all Muslims, be they Arabs or Indonesians. We Identify more with people Morocco then from India because we both have similar value structure and we have a common religion....."

I agree completely. The only Muslims who disagree that Pakistan has a "special spot" are the Bangladeshi. I suppose it was a historical mistake on our part that we were just too busy identifying with Moroccans to be paying any attention to the grievances of the Bengalees. It is especially a pity given that we have a similar value structure and a religion that is in common with the Bangladeshis.

In any case, how are the Bangladeshis doing vis-a-vis our country? Please read the following---

Economic Disparity Between Bangladesh & Pakistan

Economic gap between East and West Pakistan in 1960s is often cited as a key reason for the secessionist movement led by Shaikh Mujib's Awami League and the creation of Bangladesh in 1971. This disparity has grown over the last 40 years, and the per capita income in Pakistan now stands at 1.7 times Bangladesh's in 2011, slightly higher than 1.6 as it was in 1971.

Forty years after the Fall of Dhaka and the creation of Bangladesh on Dec 16, 1971, there's still much talk about it. The Daily Star, a Bangladeshi newspaper, has published a piece on the subject by Akbar Ali Khan marking the 40th anniversary of Bangladeshi independence. In his Op ED, Mr. Khan argues that "political independence provided much more conducive environment for growth in Bangladesh than united Pakistan. Though economic growth in East Pakistan was revived during Ayub Khan's so-called decade of reforms, growth rate in erstwhile East Pakistan was much lower than that of West Pakistan".

In his zeal to rationalize independence based on the economic argument, Mr. Khan has clearly ignored the following facts:

1. In 1969-70, the ratio of per capita incomes between West and East Pakistan was 1.6, as detailed by Mr. Khan. In 2011, however, this ratio has increased to 1.7, according to the IMF data.

2. Bangladesh is still categorized by the World Bank among low income and least developed countries of the world, while Pakistan is a middle income country and classified well above the list of least developed countries of the world.

3. Bangladesh is ranked as 11th poorest country in the world by the World Bank in terms of the percentage of population living on $1.25 or less a day. Neighboring India is the 14th poorest on this list, while Pakistan does not show up on it. The rest of the nations on this list are all in sub-Saharan Africa.

4. In 1947, East Pakistan started with a lower economic base than West Pakistan, and the loss of its Hindu Bengali business elite in 1947 left it worse off. It also didn't have the benefit of the large number of Muslim businessmen who migrated to West Pakistan, particularly Karachi, after partition of India in 1947.

5. Pakistani economist Dr. Ishrat Husain explains it well when he says that "although East Pakistan benefited from Ayub’s economic reforms in 1960s, the fact that these benefits were perceived as a dispensation from a quasi-colonial military regime to its colony—East Pakistan—proved to be lethal."

 

[reformistani]

Just because Indians *may* have some residuals of IVC culture does not mean I surrender my proud heritage to them. The Indus and Central Asia has often exported our culture to peninsular india. Aryan, Islamic etc. THe people of IVC did not simply disappear overnight. Their descendants are right where they have been always, the river Indus.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Just because Indians *may* have some residuals of IVC culture does not mean I surrender my proud heritage to them. The Indus and Central Asia has often exported our culture to peninsular india. Aryan, Islamic etc. THe people of IVC did not simply disappear overnight. Their descendants are right where they have been always, the river Indus.

And completely oblivious of their legacy, with nothing to show for their descent, other than their location. When the British take pride in Stonehenge, they do so not as descendants, but as representatives of humanity who are living in the same place as a monumental achievement of that same race many millennia ago. When the Romans of today, or the Italians, or French or Spaniards or Portuguese - indeed, Europeans of any former part of the Roman Empire - glory in the achievements and the heritage of that Empire, they have their language, their law and the living transformation of art and architecture from Roman times, their literature, heavily influenced by Roman literature, and their history, which flows in direct line from the history of the Romans. When the Greeks take pride in the matchless legacy of Hellenistic civilisation, they have similar, direct links to flaunt.

So, too, inhabitants of cultural India, including inhabitants of present-day political India, of Bangladesh, of Nepal, of Bhutan, of Sri Lanka certainly, of Burma partially, have the right to speak with the pride of ownership about the many waves of cultural rejuvenation that the sub-continent was fortunate to enjoy. Those who wish to celebrate their common roots, Afghans included, have a right to do so which cannot be attenuated by cultural fascists of either the Hindu or the Muslim variety.

Those who wish to claim this rich heritage are free to do it. Those who do not wish to do so are equally free not to do so, and may stay outside, isolated and belonging nowhere, picking at the unhealed scabs of their self-inflicted injuries, and quarreling among themselves over the details of their detachment while the rest of the world passes by.

 

[funtoosh]

Rusty Said: ".....And Pakistan will always have a special spot for any and all Muslims, be they Arabs or Indonesians. We Identify more with people Morocco then from India because we both have similar value structure and we have a common religion....."

I agree completely. The only Muslims who disagree that Pakistan has a "special spot" are the Bangladeshi. I suppose it was a historical mistake on our part that we were just too busy identifying with Moroccans to be paying any attention to the grievances of the Bengalees. It is especially a pity given that we have a similar value structure and a religion that is in common with the Bangladeshis.

In any case, how are the Bangladeshis doing vis-a-vis our country? Please read the following---

Economic Disparity Between Bangladesh & Pakistan

Economic gap between East and West Pakistan in 1960s is often cited as a key reason for the secessionist movement led by Shaikh Mujib's Awami League and the creation of Bangladesh in 1971. This disparity has grown over the last 40 years, and the per capita income in Pakistan now stands at 1.7 times Bangladesh's in 2011, slightly higher than 1.6 as it was in 1971.

Forty years after the Fall of Dhaka and the creation of Bangladesh on Dec 16, 1971, there's still much talk about it. The Daily Star, a Bangladeshi newspaper, has published a piece on the subject by Akbar Ali Khan marking the 40th anniversary of Bangladeshi independence. In his Op ED, Mr. Khan argues that "political independence provided much more conducive environment for growth in Bangladesh than united Pakistan. Though economic growth in East Pakistan was revived during Ayub Khan's so-called decade of reforms, growth rate in erstwhile East Pakistan was much lower than that of West Pakistan".

In his zeal to rationalize independence based on the economic argument, Mr. Khan has clearly ignored the following facts:

1. In 1969-70, the ratio of per capita incomes between West and East Pakistan was 1.6, as detailed by Mr. Khan. In 2011, however, this ratio has increased to 1.7, according to the IMF data.

2. Bangladesh is still categorized by the World Bank among low income and least developed countries of the world, while Pakistan is a middle income country and classified well above the list of least developed countries of the world.

3. Bangladesh is ranked as 11th poorest country in the world by the World Bank in terms of the percentage of population living on $1.25 or less a day. Neighboring India is the 14th poorest on this list, while Pakistan does not show up on it. The rest of the nations on this list are all in sub-Saharan Africa.

4. In 1947, East Pakistan started with a lower economic base than West Pakistan, and the loss of its Hindu Bengali business elite in 1947 left it worse off. It also didn't have the benefit of the large number of Muslim businessmen who migrated to West Pakistan, particularly Karachi, after partition of India in 1947.

5. Pakistani economist Dr. Ishrat Husain explains it well when he says that "although East Pakistan benefited from Ayub’s economic reforms in 1960s, the fact that these benefits were perceived as a dispensation from a quasi-colonial military regime to its colony—East Pakistan—proved to be lethal."

human dev index of BD is far greater than pak and better than India even.
Its a matter of time, and with indian help bd will beat pak eocnomy.

 

[funtoosh]

If they respect the decision of a King so much then why don't they give us Hydrabad and the other states that decided to go with Pakistan?
And why did they invade Goa when Goa decided to stay with Portugal?
These Bhartis are incapable of making non-hypocritical statements. It's in their blood to have double standards.

no but there is no land border of hyd and other states with pak. so it belongs to india.
portugal invaded goa, so we freed it.

 

[Joe Shearer]

human dev index of BD is far greater than pak and better than India even.
Its a matter of time, and with indian help bd will beat pak eocnomy.

With or without India's help. They are doing very well, and we may hope that they will continue. There must be some reason why so many Pakistani garment exporters are re-locating to Bangladesh. With Indian help, they will speed up even further, no doubt, but all credit to them for what they have achieved on their own so far.

no but there is no land border of hyd and other states with pak. so it belongs to india.
portugal invaded goa, so we freed it.

Goa was a colony of Portugal, and Portugal never gave up her colonies peacefully. In each case - Angola, Mozambique - she was expelled at the point of a bayonet. Only in 1974, with the change of regime in Portugal, did she give independence to the rest of her colonies, except Macau and East Timor.

This was not an Indian issue. Some Pakistanis, thankfully a small and intellectually challenged sub-set, see everything through anti-Indian eyes (not, strangely enough, pro-Pakistani eyes), hence see Goa as part of their own unsuccessful attempt to carve out their identity (their perception; most normal Pakistanis have no time to waste on this nonsense, and are secure in their identity).

This was entirely a Portuguese issue.

 

[KRAIT]

Just because Indians *may* have some residuals of IVC culture does not mean I surrender my proud heritage to them. The Indus and Central Asia has often exported our culture to peninsular india. Aryan, Islamic etc. THe people of IVC did not simply disappear overnight. Their descendants are right where they have been always, the river Indus.

Its not "yours", its nor "mine", its "OURS".

Stop labelling a civilization you don't know a bit about and posting repeatedly won't change history.

 

[Armstrong]

@ Joe Shearer :Joe, if you'd like to review an alternative view on this then I do suggest that you read Ahmed Hassan Dani, a huge chunk of his work has been pertaining to the IVC. Should you wish to, I'll try to grab a copy of one of his books on this topic and then get back to you ! In the meantime you can check this page out and perhaps, should you wish to, explore his works further : Ahmad Hasan Dani - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[p(-)0ENiX]

I read what you say about Pakistan, and it sounds as if you were writing something about the USA, believe me it doesn't fare better, albeit they can exploit their natural resources better, and project an artificial image, by efficiently(deceptively) using the Media (Mass media).

I personally know a couple of white & Pakistani Americans. I know that their society also faces many issues, but it's definitely not as bad as Pakistan.

 

[reformistani]

you are just dying to talk to me aren't you? I am not flattered. what happened to A vs. B?

And completely oblivious of their legacy, with nothing to show for their descent, other than their location. When the British take pride in Stonehenge, they do so not as descendants, but as representatives of humanity who are living in the same place as a monumental achievement of that same race many millennia ago. When the Romans of today, or the Italians, or French or Spaniards or Portuguese - indeed, Europeans of any former part of the Roman Empire - glory in the achievements and the heritage of that Empire, they have their language, their law and the living transformation of art and architecture from Roman times, their literature, heavily influenced by Roman literature, and their history, which flows in direct line from the history of the Romans. When the Greeks take pride in the matchless legacy of Hellenistic civilisation, they have similar, direct links to flaunt.

So, too, inhabitants of cultural India, including inhabitants of present-day political India, of Bangladesh, of Nepal, of Bhutan, of Sri Lanka certainly, of Burma partially, have the right to speak with the pride of ownership about the many waves of cultural rejuvenation that the sub-continent was fortunate to enjoy. Those who wish to celebrate their common roots, Afghans included, have a right to do so which cannot be attenuated by cultural fascists of either the Hindu or the Muslim variety.

Those who wish to claim this rich heritage are free to do it. Those who do not wish to do so are equally free not to do so, and may stay outside, isolated and belonging nowhere, picking at the unhealed scabs of their self-inflicted injuries, and quarreling among themselves over the details of their detachment while the rest of the world passes by.

 

[Joe Shearer]

@ Joe Shearer :Joe, if you'd like to review an alternative view on this then I do suggest that you read Ahmed Hassan Dani, a huge chunk of his work has been pertaining to the IVC. Should you wish to, I'll try to grab a copy of one of his books on this topic and then get back to you ! In the meantime you can check this page out and perhaps, should you wish to, explore his works further : Ahmad Hasan Dani - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As a matter of fact, I was introduced to his work by the very nice crowd I met at ATP, some three years ago. It was fascinating; the man was a polymath, and had endearing little anecdotes which show both his enormous knowledge and his innocence of certain aspects.

While his work is admirable, he had developed a point of view about the connections of Central Asia to the Indus Valley, and it does seem to me that the effort to force everything into this template distorts things more than acceptable. I have reservations about this semi-political semi-theological approach, which may have developed due to his not-very-pleasant experiences at BHU.

I believe that I should go back and study him again, along with the derivative book that he seems to have inspired, Aitzaz Ahsan's Indus Man.

 

[reformistani]

Admin,

This comment is more insulting to me than any vulgarity:

completely oblivious of their legacy, with nothing to show for their descent, other than their location




The artifacts found in IVC have always reminded me of children toys in Sindh, the pottery, carts, technology, design reminds of me of things I have seen in rural punjab and sindh. Finally may I ask how Mehrgarh of 7000 BC belongs to Assam and Tamil Nadu not Baloch? ridiculous.

Admin, please control the barbarians.

 

[Joe Shearer]

@ Joe Shearer :Joe, if you'd like to review an alternative view on this then I do suggest that you read Ahmed Hassan Dani, a huge chunk of his work has been pertaining to the IVC. Should you wish to, I'll try to grab a copy of one of his books on this topic and then get back to you ! In the meantime you can check this page out and perhaps, should you wish to, explore his works further : Ahmad Hasan Dani - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I hope you have not already read this, but there is that utterly charming story about his visit to Korea, on some academic conference or the other. He found himself staring at the markings on a vase in his room, until he became convinced that he was looking at a form of Brahmi script! In the morning, he announced this to his hosts, to their great astonishment; he had, after all worked out from first principles -overnight! - what had taken scholars decades of investigation to establish.

This anecdote shows us both his outstanding brilliance as well as his astonishing innocence. Which of us could even dream of working out that markings on an artefact belonged to a script from many thousands of miles away, entirely from first principles,and how innocent must be a man who is unaware that the script in his host country belongs to a script that he had himself mastered.

You are right, it is time to re-visit him and re-read him, this time, with care and with pleasure.