Pakistan To Participate In Turkey’s TFX Next-Gen Fighter Aircraft Program

mike2000 is back said:

Well, if a country is worried about U.S /U.K/Western sanctions, then I'm afraid that country will have to be a closed country like N.Korea.
So Turkey shouldn't be worried about our Sanctions in future. Since they need our help to have any chance of making their dream of building such an advanced fighter jet come true.

Anyway, as long as we continue to provide all the necessary help and assistance to Turkey in this field, then they shouldn't have much problem building this fighter jet .

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i wasn't worried about them i was discussing how great this project will be for pakistan if we decide to join it.we have good ties with uk and you guys are far more open to technology sharing and less rigid than america.so the risk of senction for pakistan will far lower if engine is british.

nadeemkhan110 said:

Pakistan will have to invest about 2 billion in TAI TFX and single engine jet will not be able to carry much payload so I don't think single engine TAI TFX will be a good idea.

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But the end result would be worth it, a fifth generation fighter jet can take out any number of 4th and 4.5 generation jets, not even considering the expertise we would acquire being part of this project, money should not be an issue.

SBD-3 said:

Aircraft manufacturing and designing is a luxury. Had PAF had enough money, we would have already seen another platform making her way to Kamra. These are just things good for news for now. For a successful TFX, turkey would need at first sufficient experience of assembling and manufacturing JSF to see what would they need in their TFX and what not.

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Indeed the professionals are aware of luxury and its expense hence a plan made while keeping in view the pocket as I said earlier. It is like starting to walk and next is running. If TFX interests Pakistan then I am sure, TAI and PAC/PAF are aware of our capability, potentials and share in this program though no one would be bluffing from PAC about that. Things are considered after a feasibility and reality check that too involves the economy.

No doubt that current shape of PAF's budget is not in favour to induct a new platform on urgent basis but here we are talking about future induction, amount paid in different dates that we are not going to pay billions in a single go that too proves that currently, we are not in position to buy Hi-end stuff off the shelf to show-case. Planning is based upon long run while keeping in view the growing economy as well. Our experience from K-8 till JFT, participation in such program based upon expertise and knowledge gained from current fleet would help a lot in such program that Turkey offered that is not unnecessarily or unknowingly.

Yet, we haven't joined the program but still I would say, if it is the case, that is going to be beneficial with lot of things for us. Aviation City/PAC is yet not committed/announced to build a total indigenous A/C of that category or it is not like that we are going to produce the A/C totally by us but could participate to the extent whereby, in future In'Sha'ALLAH we could be where many giants are today so no harm to start with little or as much as available. The JV of JFT was also started in the days when odds were not in favour or worse than today's shape but we succeeded and gained a lot while set a base for future participation.

Turkey did not start the TFX program uselessly or without having idea of platform though they have enough of experience for a starter and still leading in many areas than others. TFX is not going to roll-out by overnight so there is still plenty of time to advance the learning and in-cooperate much needed which will be done by the passage of time.

The Eagle said:

Indeed the professionals are aware of luxury and its expense hence a plan made while keeping in view the pocket as I said earlier. It is like starting to walk and next is running. If TFX interests Pakistan then I am sure, TAI and PAC/PAF are aware of our capability, potentials and share in this program though no one would be bluffing from PAC about that. Things are considered after a feasibility and reality check that too involves the economy.

No doubt that current shape of PAF's budget is not in favour to induct a new platform on urgent basis but here we are talking about future induction, amount paid in different dates that we are not going to pay billions in a single go that too proves that currently, we are not in position to buy Hi-end stuff off the shelf to show-case. Planning is based upon long run while keeping in view the growing economy as well. Our experience from K-8 till JFT, participation in such program based upon expertise and knowledge gained from current fleet would help a lot in such program that Turkey offered that is not unnecessarily or unknowingly.

Yet, we haven't joined the program but still I would say, if it is the case, that is going to be beneficial with lot of things for us. Aviation City/PAC is yet not committed/announced to build a total indigenous A/C of that category or it is not like that we are going to produce the A/C totally by us but could participate to the extent whereby, in future In'Sha'ALLAH we could be where many giants are today so no harm to start with little or as much as available. The JV of JFT was also started in the days when odds were not in favour or worse than today's shape but we succeeded and gained a lot while set a base for future participation.

Turkey did not start the TFX program uselessly or without having idea of platform though they have enough of experience for a starter and still leading in many areas than others. TFX is not going to roll-out by overnight so there is still plenty of time to advance the learning and in-cooperate much needed which will be done by the passage of time.

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Exactly my point

Not necessarily (May be its the other way around)
1. Turkey can easily pour money into R&D for next generation engine and become a potential big user of that engine .(Which other country in the world other than US can do other than complete product)
2. Turkey`s closed relationship with Russia is another dimension in terms of Engine as i think this is the most trickiest part for whole project .

So odds are in favour of Turks new plane

randomradio said:

What engine are you proposing for a single engine version? The only engine available today with enough thrust is on the F-35.

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From Russia or China.

Muhammad Omar said:

TAI TFX has 3 different Designs i Think Pakistan should go for Single Engine cause we have an Option of dual Engine J-31 of China

But the Question is how much Pakistan will give $$$ in this project?? $500 M?

Also this will complete East and WEST Combo which Chief Sohail said in his interview

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That is what I have been saying The TFX with the Single Engine configuration ( no need for canards). J-31 is already dual engine.

nadeemkhan110 said:

Pakistan will have to invest about 2 billion in TAI TFX and single engine jet will not be able to carry much payload so I don't think single engine TAI TFX will be a good idea.

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TAI TFX will be for Air-toAir Combat predominately, J-31 will have good payload and can be used in strike roles.

SOHEIL said:

It doesn't mean they are going to have both !

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Hmm well you never know

nadeemkhan110 said:

Pakistan will have to invest about 2 billion in TAI TFX and single engine jet will not be able to carry much payload so I don't think single engine TAI TFX will be a good idea.

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If Payload is the Concern then we have Option of J-31

TFX twin engine concept has some similarity with the Chinese J-31 which is an export only project. Financially sticking with J-31 would be cheaper for Pakistan and the aircraft will be available before the TFX, but I have a theory if Pakistan joins TFX.

Would be a long shot but it is possible. Since a Turkey + Pakistan aircraft will have a nexus of both western and eastern technology. It could be that J-31 turn into TFX. Turkey will have access to Chinese aviation expertise via Pakistan and the development will be fast tracked considerably.

Hassan Guy said:

From Russia or China.

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Not possible. One, they don't an engine that can replace two engines. Second, NATO won't allow a Russian or Chinese system, they forced Turkey to cancel the Chinese SAM deal.

The only engine option is from NATO countries.

randomradio said:

Not possible. One, they don't an engine that can replace two engines. Second, NATO won't allow a Russian or Chinese system, they forced Turkey to cancel the Chinese SAM deal.

The only engine option is from NATO countries.

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NATO doesnt have any leverage on Turkey they can choose non NATO suppliers as long as the alternatives are competitive, Turkey is making attempts to be not dependent on US. In TFX case EJ200 already chosen as the basis for a new power plant.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TAI_TFX#Propulsion

Turkish Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoğlu announced on January 8, 2015, that the TFX will be a twin-engined fighter jet.[2] The Turkish Undersecretariat for Defense Industries (SSM), the procurement agency for Turkish Armed Forces, has written a letter of intent to three engine manufacturers: General Electric, Pratt & Whitney and EUROJET Turbo.

On 20 January 2015, Aselsan of Turkey announced that it had executed a memorandum of understanding with Eurojet, the manufacturer of the EJ200 engine used in the Eurofighter Typhoon.[29] The announcement also stated that a derivative of the EJ200 will be used in the TFX program.[30][31][32][33] The two companies will additionally collaborate and co-develop engine control software systems and engine maintenance monitoring systems.[33] Turkey's selection of the EJ200 evidences TAI's intention to utilise supercruise capability.

Shabi1 said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TAI_TFX#Propulsion

Turkish Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoğlu announced on January 8, 2015, that the TFX will be a twin-engined fighter jet.[2] The Turkish Undersecretariat for Defense Industries (SSM), the procurement agency for Turkish Armed Forces, has written a letter of intent to three engine manufacturers: General Electric, Pratt & Whitney and EUROJET Turbo.

On 20 January 2015, Aselsan of Turkey announced that it had executed a memorandum of understanding with Eurojet, the manufacturer of the EJ200 engine used in the Eurofighter Typhoon.[29] The announcement also stated that a derivative of the EJ200 will be used in the TFX program.[30][31][32][33] The two companies will additionally collaborate and co-develop engine control software systems and engine maintenance monitoring systems.[33] Turkey's selection of the EJ200 evidences TAI's intention to utilise supercruise capability.

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I know the Turks have chosen twin engine. I was replying to your friend who wants a single engine version for the PAF.

randomradio said:

I know the Turks have chosen twin engine. I was replying to your friend who wants a single engine version for the PAF.

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Not true, This is an independent Turkish program, NATO has nothing to do with this project. Turkey is PAYING the UK for assistance. This Program is already US free(Though US weapons are compatible). As said Turkey can choose non NATO suppliers.

randomradio said:

I know the Turks have chosen twin engine. I was replying to your friend who wants a single engine version for the PAF.

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Yes correct, single engine doesnt make sense for TFX as Turkey already inducting JSFs and its a incorrect myth that PAF has a single engine fighter only rule. PAF has used twin engined fighters/bombers (F-6, A-5, B-57) and can induct them in future again, was a brief requirement during the F-16 embargo era when alternatives were being sought and Mirage F-1 & 2000 were being considered.

Shabi1 said:

Yes correct, single engine doesnt make sense for TFX as Turkey already inducting JSFs and its a incorrect myth that PAF has a single engine fighter only rule. PAF has used twin engined fighters/bombers (F-6, A-5, B-57) and can induct them in future again, was a brief requirement during the F-16 embargo era when alternatives were being sought and Mirage F-1 & 2000 were being considered.

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Yes, however a single engine variant would make sense for Pakistan as J-31 is dual (which Pakistan will probably get).

Viper0011. said:

This is a separate program, allowing Turkey to be independent of the US aircraft as their relations are drifting away. The idea behind this is for Turkey to create their own 5th gen plane to make up the "Hi" of the Hi-Lo mix. F-35 will supplement that "Hi" along with the TFX. F-16's, etc, will serve the "Lo" of that mix.

Pakistan can make this their hi as well and keep the JFT and the F-16 for Lo.

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The day when Turkey will quit NATO, will be a sign of the two countries parting ways (not happening anytime soon since being a member of NATO have its perks). Till then, expect Turkey to be in American camp.

However, US would not mind Turkey exporting some stuff to Pakistan.