Are Russian T-90 Tanks Outsmarting US-Made TOWs?

Zarvan said:

However, Russia is understood to have supplied the latest generation T-90 tanks which are equipped with reactive armor capable of holding out against the deadly explosive power of the TOW missiles, Russian media reported over the last few days.

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Since many Syrian T-72s were seen with ERA (Kontakt-1), this basically says that the T-90 has a different, newer type of ERA (Kontakt-5 or perhaps even Relikt), which is more effective, including against tandem HEAT warheads. T-72 without any ERA would be most vulnerable. Some Syrian T-72 have therefor been fitted with SLAT armor, compensation for lack of ERA

Basic T-72


T-72 with SLAT


T-72 with Kontakt-1


T-90 with Kontakt-5

Zarvan said:

In addition, these tanks have sensors which can track the missile the moment it locks on to the tank and take evasive action which includes throwing a smoke screen around the tank or taking electronic counter-measures to jam the lock-on system of the missiles.

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I'm not sure I understand this. TOW does not 'lock on' to anything: it has command line-of-sight guidance.


In its basic infantry form, the system comprises a missile in a sealed tube which is clipped to a launch tube prior to use. When required, the missile tube is attached to the rear of the launch tube, the target sighted and the missile fired. The launch, or "kick", motor (booster) ejects the missile from the launch tube, at which point four wings indexed at 45 degrees just forward of the booster nozzles spring open forwards, four tail control surfaces flip open rearwards, and sustained propulsion is subsequently provided by the flight motor (sustainer) which fires through lateral nozzles amidships and propels the missile to the target.
An optical sensor on the sight continuously monitors the position of a light source on the missile relative to the line-of-sight, and then corrects the trajectory of the missile by generating electrical signals that are passed down two wires to command the control surface actuators. After launch, the operator simply has to keep the cross-hairs of his sight pointing at the target, and the guidance system will automatically transmit corrective commands to the missile through the wire.
The TOW missile in its current variations is not a fire-and-forget weapon, and like most second generation wire-guided missiles has Semi-Automatic Command Line of Sight guidance. This means that the guidance system is directly linked to the platform, and requires that the target be kept in the shooter's line of sight until the missile impacts.

Zarvan said:

The surprisingly agile T-90 tanks can take offensive action by turning and firing at the threat in a matter of seconds.

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There is relatively little difference between T-72 and T-90 are far as track and running gear is concerned. T-90 has a different engine with more hp and different track. Same gearbox. There should not be a large difference in agility between T-72 and T-90. Read e.g. Indian Defence Review - Bharat Verma - Google Boeken

Starts with T-90. T-72 at 6 min.

C130 said:

true but there could be tactics get around this.

you don't put all your eggs in one basket, different grounds could operate two TOW firings posts and 20 missiles each. this would make it harder for Russia to find and bomb them where they are stored.


the point is keep moving and not let Russia find them. shoot and scoot constantly.

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And the counter strategy would be to increase the use UCAVs. A lot of UCAVs are cheaper than tanks.

phantomrush said:

Unfortunately, the "Shtora-1" can not fully protect the tank from the rocket TOW-2. It will make the missile guidance difficult. Although I think it is enough to return fire hit the operator ATRA, prior to entering the tank. All older TOW-2 yes, it will be blocked. Cornet just able to hit the tank. But it is possible that in Cornet are blockers of the defeat of their T-90 tanks.


Each rocket of this complex costs about $ 150 000. Even the Saudis do not have enough money that would provide Rabelo.

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All this assuming one firing team of TOW. Use multiple teams simultaneously to hit one tank .... end of story (you can point Shtora only in one direction at any one time).

Penguin said:

All this assuming one firing team of TOW. Use multiple teams simultaneously to hit one tank .... end of story (you can point Shtora only in one direction at any one time).

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Let us then immediately send B-52 carpet bombing to do. Why waste time on trifles. Along with the two angles to shoot tank it is very difficult.
Especially in urban and rural building. This will be no exception. And precisely, the tank will be enveloped in an aerosol protection opretoru TOW-2B will have to pass to the imager, and during this time. For the IR detection system is activated. In any case, turn the gun and shoot the tank itself can. The main thing that the crew was trained in time to press the right buttons. So the main problem is not 2 ATGM. The problem of untrained crew.

Penguin said:

What radio emission? Tow is wire guided: Guidance signals from the guidance computer are transmitted along two wires, which spool from the back of the missile to the control system on the missile. Only if the firing team does not maintain communication silence (use tactical radio or use cell phone) would there be some emission.

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New TOW-2 modifications, which were discussed, have guidance via radio.

phantomrush said:

Let us then immediately send B-52 carpet bombing to do. Why waste time on trifles. Along with the two angles to shoot tank it is very difficult.
Especially in urban and rural building. This will be no exception. And precisely, the tank will be enveloped in an aerosol protection opretoru TOW-2B will have to pass to the imager, and during this time. For the IR detection system is activated. In any case, turn the gun and shoot the tank itself can. The main thing that the crew was trained in time to press the right buttons. So the main problem is not 2 ATGM. The problem of untrained crew.

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I don't recall the Chechens having much problems ambushing Russian tanks from multiple angle, in urban settings. But they were closeup, using various types of RPG.

How would an aerosol hinder TOW, which only needs the have its missile's 'rear light' seen by its firer? Tow doesn't use laser guidance and it does not rely on the IR signature of the tank in order to hit it.

Example

As an option, the T-72AG can also be fitted with a Varta optronic countermeasures system which ensures the following:

• decoying away incoming anti-tank guided missiles by means of setting light jamming in the sector of ±20° relative to the main armament bore axis in the horizontal plane and of ±2° in the vertical plane;
• suppression of anti-tank guided missile guidance control systems that use laser semi-active homing systems with laser target illumination, by means of laying quick-generation aerosol screens in the sector of ±45° relative to the main armament bore axis.

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KMDB - Protection of modernized T-72 main battle tanks

phantomrush said:

New TOW-2 modifications, which were discussed, have guidance via radio.

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Hughes developed a TOW missile with a wireless data link in 1989, referred to as TOW-2N, but this weapon was not adopted for use by the U.S. military.
FOTT (Follow-On To TOW) program was canceled in 1998
TOW-FF (TOW-Fire and Forget) program was cut short on 30 November 2001 because of funding limitations
In 2001 and 2002, Raytheon and the U.S. Army worked together on an extended range TOW 2B variant, initially referred to as TOW-2B (ER), but now called TOW-2B Aero which has a special nose cap that increases range to 4.5 km. Although this missile has been in production since 2004, no U.S. Army designation has yet been assigned. Also, a wireless version of the TOW-2B Aero was developed that uses stealth one way radio link, called TOW-2B Aero RF. The US Army is testing the modified missile and has funded procurement of the wireless TOW 2B version through fiscal years 2007 - 2009.
BGM-71 TOW - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
TOW Missile Improvements

Yes, TOW-2B Aero RF would have wireless guidance, but this too should be unaffected by aerosol system or Shtora.
How do we know what TOW version was supplied and by whom? It seems very unlikely US would supply the wireless version, esp. when it has many non-RF missiules around. Plus fighters would aim to engage a long 4km range, has this happened?

Penguin said:

I don't recall the Chechens having much problems ambushing Russian tanks from multiple angle, in urban settings. But they were closeup, using various types of RPG.

How would an aerosol hinder TOW, which only needs the have its 'rear light' seen by its firer? Tow doesn't use laser guidance and it does not rely on the IR signature of the tank in order to hit it.

Example

KMDB - Protection of modernized T-72 main battle tanks

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during the two Chechen wars Russia has lost fewer tanks than Israel in the war in Lebanon. So talk about "destroying the city," it's all a silly PR western press.

As for aerosol protection. TOW-2 gunner takes aim through the first optical channel. After ranging, the tank shot at this side of the aerosol cloud. After that, the gunner will need to switch to an infrared imager sight. It takes a lot of time. During this time the tank can either leave the line of attack, or shoot himself in the place where radiation was produced rangefinder.
We have during training, he has been training, when the tank was irradiated with 4-5 sides, and the commander was to determine the direction from which the fire will be carried out, and which "Measuring" distractions. With enough training, you can destroy the anti-tank opretorov. In addition, in the work place T-90 electronic warfare system should be to suppress the terrorists' communication.

Penguin said:

Yes, TOW-2B Aero RF would have wireless guidance, but this too should be unaffected by aerosol system or Shtora.
How do we know what TOW version was supplied and by whom? It seems very unlikely US would supply the wireless version, esp. when it has many non-RF missiules around. Plus fighters would aim to engage a long 4km range, has this happened?

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So we said at the beginning of the topic. What is the main danger will be of new versions of TOW-2. However, we can not know that Saudi Arabia will not send them to Syria. I think the United States will not be able to refuse them. Not least because that destroyed a couple of T-90, the United States is very strong blow to the pride of Russia.
This is how to bring down the F-117. Only the T-90 is not worth one billion dollars%)

phantomrush said:

during the two Chechen wars Russia has lost fewer tanks than Israel in the war in Lebanon. So talk about "destroying the city," it's all a silly PR western press.

As for aerosol protection. TOW-2 gunner takes aim through the first optical channel. After ranging, the tank shot at this side of the aerosol cloud. After that, the gunner will need to switch to an infrared imager sight. It takes a lot of time. During this time the tank can either leave the line of attack, or shoot himself in the place where radiation was produced rangefinder.
We have during training, he has been training, when the tank was irradiated with 4-5 sides, and the commander was to determine the direction from which the fire will be carried out, and which "Measuring" distractions. With enough training, you can destroy the anti-tank opretorov. In addition, in the work place T-90 electronic warfare system should be to suppress the terrorists' communication.

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As for aerosol protection. TOW-2 gunner takes aim through the first optical channel. After ranging, the tank shot at this side of the aerosol cloud.

TOW-2 Gunner doesn't need to range the T-90, TOW-2B Aero has a range of 4,500 meters.

but if you must get a range you don't need to range the T-90 it's self, but a object near the T-90

that's outsmarting the T-90

C130 said:

As for aerosol protection. TOW-2 gunner takes aim through the first optical channel. After ranging, the tank shot at this side of the aerosol cloud.

TOW-2 Gunner doesn't need to range the T-90, TOW-2B Aero has a range of 4,500 meters.

but if you must get a range you don't need to range the T-90 it's self, but a object near the T-90

that's outsmarting the T-90

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Sorry, but when did you last see that terrorists were able to accurately shoot ATGM, on 2 km? 4500 meters - it is about 15-20 seconds of flight. During this time the tank will leave the shelter because he knows the distance to the target as well as anti-tank. If the tank can not shoot, the crew of course will have to leave the line of attack.

phantomrush said:

Sorry, but when did you last see that terrorists were able to accurately shoot ATGM, on 2 km? 4500 meters - it is about 15-20 seconds of flight. During this time the tank will leave the shelter because he knows the distance to the target as well as anti-tank. If the tank can not shoot, the crew of course will have to leave the line of attack.

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I've seen videos terrorists using the Tow at near their max range (15-20 seconds) and hitting the mark. TOW-2B is a lot easier to aim/hit than the regular TOW2-A!! it flies over the tank by a meter or two. no need to put it in the side of or front of tank that's only 2.23 meters tall.

Little experiment. I googled video: tow + syria
From the first 10 hits, one is a double (same movie), leaving 9.
One is an animation, leaving 8.
One is a vid of a near miss, leaving 7
One does not accurately show the missile firing, leaving 6

As follows
Stil 1.08 > wire guided (you can see the pair of wires)

[MEDIA][/media]
4 shots. 50/50 with wires visible

3 shots 2/3 wires visible

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stil 0:18 > wires visisble.

5 shots, all wires visible.

1 shot , wires visible

Makes me wonder how common BGM-71E-4B-RF is in Syria.

None of the launchers has the Improved Target Acquisition System (ITAS), which includes a laser rangefinder


None of the launchers has a thermal sight, just the optical sight. There is no laser rangefinder with neither the optical nor the thermal sight (so there are no laser emissions to detect by a T-90 tank, to cue the Shtora system and turret).
TOW 2 Wire-Guided Anti-Tank Missile - Army Technology


As for exports: DSCA notifications containing BGM-71E-4B-RF
Saudi Arabia Dec. 17, 2009
Bahrain September 14, 2011
Saudi Arabia Dec 5, 2013
Lebanon Jul 22, 2015
Morocco Nov 18, 2015
Taiwan Dec, 16, 2015
Oman Jan. 7, 2016

Syrian army source: rebels make heavy use of TOW missiles | Reuters
Captured TOW 2A missiles employed in Syria | Armament Research Services

what is 'wire guided' in TOW? Is it a spool of wire that unwinds or is it a pair of antenna? I dont understand this 'wire guided' concept? @Penguin ?

airmarshal said:

what is 'wire guided' in TOW? Is it a spool of wire that unwinds or is it a pair of antenna? I dont understand this 'wire guided' concept? @Penguin ?

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Wire spooling from the missile.

@Dazzler its concerning isnt it? Given that we have a lot of TOWs as well and indians have T90s.

Umair Nawaz said:

@Dazzler its concerning isnt it? Given that we have a lot of TOWs as well and indians have T90s.

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The report is pretty exaggerated to say the least. The system is effective mostly against semi active guided threats, not so for others. And to date, there is no solid proof of Syrian 90s resisting Tows.

Concerning our inventory, we operate many types of atgms, mmw ones l, wire and laser guided ones

Dazzler said:

The report is pretty exaggerated to say the least. The system is effective mostly against semi active guided threats, not so for others. And to date, there is no solid proof of Syrian 90s resisting Tows.

Concerning our inventory, we operate many types of atgms, mmw ones l, wire and laser guided ones

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do we have TOW 2B? Or 2A?