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pakistan's and their reluctance to evolve with western culture.

somebozo said:
The question is why should we????
do westerners end up wearing shalwar kameez and eating nihari enmass??

We have very diverse indigenious culture and this Valentine day is just a commercial rubbish...
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We have seen many western women wearing salwar kameez and even saris.
 
Merging is a two way street. If one party is not willing then it is no longer a merger but a hostile takeover. This question can be asked the other way around too. Why is the west reluctant to accept Islam?

We have to no look no further than Turkey. How much more westernised a Muslim must be to be granted acceptance? They (Turkey) are even financially better off than many European countries yet they are still are not accepted in to the EU. Why is that?
 
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Valentine's day is not necessary


St. Valentine's Day began as a liturgical celebration of one or more early Christian saints named Valentinus. The guy in early years of Chistianity did preaching etc or other Religious activities he basically ran a christian Madrassa against Roman rule

Would you like to give a gift in order to honor a Christian pope ? Be my guest

Why don't you give your loved one a present/ appreciation other 365 days in year ?

There are far more pios people such as Idhi owner who has given more to people of Pakistan how about we not celebrate a day in his name ? instead ?

Idhi Day? I would not mind giving my loved ones ( with s) gifts , on that day to honor a person who had given alot to Pakistan instead why should I even bother with the trend

How many Islamic figures does western society celebrates their name or teachings ?

Hey if you wana give your loved one a rose or a heart or a gift be my guest , use any day you want in year , even on the valentine's day etc

But the question is are you really doing it for your loved one or just as a fashion statement that it has to be on the "Pope's designated day"

On one hand people argue we had enough of these "religious" icons or representatives however funny enough the day folks want to argue we should support, that day itself is meant to remember a religious icon of some faith , for all we know he was probably a fanatic religious person
 
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Ammara Chaudhry said:
I am sorry for the late reply.
Ok so firstly I would like to clear one thing. I am not giving any fatwa wether it is haram or not. Not my department.

No No No totally not a great idea to behave like westerns in every field. We can't afford it, sir. Two entirely different cultures, mindsets, faiths, and everything else is different altogether. It's like making the earth meets the sky. Is it possible? Hell no. If you want to give an easy death to a society, it doesn't require much effort, just take away their cultural and moral values. Further, why did then millions of our Muslim brothers, sisters, mothers, and kids sacrificed to get a new nation with its own values. :Pakistan: Our sisters and mothers even sacrificed their dignities. If it was totally fine to live under British rule and/or under Indian government. Then what was the point to get ourselves freed? Alma Iqbal and Qaid e Azam did not dream of this Pakistan, sir. They dreamt of Pakistan with its own ID. So they can carry their religious and culture values with them, regardless the time period they're living in. Next, racial segregation, women rights to vote, and slavery, Islam is the first official religion to grants women with rights. (Within a day I will post an article on status of women in Islam, do check it). As per slavery you have to understand it deeply. There are many WH questions to this. This will turn into a slavery essay so let me briefly tell you with one verse from Quran that Islam even grants slaves with rights and treat them with kindness. “And such of your slaves as seek a writing (of emancipation), give them such writing, if you find that there is good and honesty in them. And give them something (yourselves) out of the wealth of Allaah which He has bestowed upon you” [al-Noor 24:33]. Now about racial discrimination, Islam even openly talks about this. Remember the last sermon of Rasool Allah (saw) and thar very famous Hadith, "O people! Your God is one and your forefather (Adam) is one. An Arab is not better than a non-Arab and a non-Arab is not better than an Arab, and a red (i.e. white tinged with red) person is not better than a black person and a black person is not better than a red person, except in piety."
Today we love giving credits to democracy for this all. Interestingly, democracy adopted all the ideas from Islam.
Sir, there is nothing wrong to adopt new ideas. Even after the death of Rasool Allah (saw) few laws were slightly changed, but it did not lose the whole purpose of it and the values of Islam were still there. Sir, let's walk with west in medical fields, compete them in field of arts, contribute into science.
Celebrating Valentine's Day, Halloween Day, Black Friday, etc. does not help west and nor it helps us. Actually, this is hurting us on very high level. We are losing this Umah, we are losing people of thinking, we are nowhere and hanging between west and east. West don't accept us and we are also losing east from our hands. So why not proudly own our values and have no complexes. If it is totally fine to out-and-out intermingling with another culture, why don't west merge with east and adopt its values? Well they find it insulting to leave their values (honestly not even rich in culture and values). And here we are copying them in everything and no matter if it even suits or not. Becoming alien!
Additionally, we have no respect to understand it, but follows it fully. Yes in west Valentine's day is not just limited to unofficial couples and in other words to very stupid culture of Gf or Bf. But Pakistanis have limited it to just this relationship and admit it or not, it is a reason of fitna in society. This plays a major part in our youth to stop thinking about the big picture, about the future, and about the betterment of the Umah and the country. We have no goals in lives for the most part. Muslims was the guy coming up with algebra. Because he did not pay attention to western culture or anything and was a person of thinking. Now we are just people of copying, but not thinking. We have limited our thoughts just to look cool with doing what west is doing. Pity!
No sir when we will give this world something even with sticking to our values, trust me, we will NOT be left behind. This is very limited mindset that we can only compete with following west.

@Zarvan @Jungibaaz @DesertFox97 @Khafee @Shamain @Neutron
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death of one thing is beginning of another and losing and evolving two different things as i have explained in my other posts in this thread i am not saying that we should accept every aspect of western culture no questions ask.what i am trying to explain is instead of out rite rejecting them we should give their culture a chance and we will able to naturally absorb the good in their culture.as you can see in EU's case German and french are neighbors they share some value which they learn from each other yet they retain their own culture.a culture never die it just evolve into something more beautiful but in our case we are resisting that change.
if you reed my post again you will come to know that i wasn't discussing rights provide to slave by isalm but the practice of owning a slave which is outdated hence it was abolished by whole Muslim world even though Islam allowed them to own a slave.what does this proves is that values and culture of the world is evolving hence we feel the need to abolish these practice .islam gave us concept of basic female right 1400 years ago now its our turn to evolve those 1400 year old rights. at the day of their advent were great but now they are in dire need to evolve.but on other hand anti racial laws are up to date even by today's standard so their is no need to evolve them.the point i am trying to convey here is that there are few things in our culture that are not up to today's standard and we need to update those things and we can learn a thing or two from west.
who said west is not merging with east that merger happened 1000 years ago when west was learning from arabs they build upon that european+arab culture and use that evolved culture to defeat arabs themselves.and america is perfect example or and evolved global culture you can see good bits every culture in it.they evolved with it even after world war 2 they absorbed Japaneses culture in theirs.that the good thing about them the don't resist. thats the reason you can speak your mind their but in pakistan india or bangladesh may get heavy beating for doing the same thing.they give minority their rights but in subcontinent we burn then alive. in our culture doing business with qadiyani is haram and if you dont believe it to be a cultural thing then look at hafeez center fiasco you will see that majority of our people think that way .we need to change these thing you see i am not talking about just valentine day.but this unchallenged control of mullah brigade how are not letting us change because they will lose their power then.it is not these black friday or halloween or other holidays that are hurting us .these mullah and their unchallenged control is what is destroying us from within.these guys are the reason west don't talk to us.these guys are the reason we are still under developed not some holiday.
you talk about ummah and sacrifice of our people in 1947 both of these things and concept died in 1971 when we lost a part of our country just because we were unwilling to change because we were unwilling to merge with our Bengali brothers culture.

persona_non_grata said:
Merging is a two way street. If one party is not willing then it is no longer a merger but a hostile takeover. This question can be asked the other way around too. Why is the west reluctant to accept Islam?

We have to no look no further than Turkey. How much more westernised a Muslim must be to be granted acceptance? They are even financially better off than many western countries yet they are still are not accepted in to the EU. Why is that?
Click to expand...
sorry for choosing the wrong word.the word i should have used was evolve.
 
The fact that Pakistani culture hasn't merged or been supplanted by western culture is actually a good thing. It means that Pakistani culture is very strong, soulful, resourceful, intrepid and ternacious. Other cultures have been devoured or eliminated by western culture due to their weakness. Anyway, why do we have to become western culturally? Will we get a prize for it or are we so pathetic as a people that we seek to please the western world and not Allah swt?
 
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Hell hound said:
this thread is made for continuation of discussion from Pakistan bans Valentine's Day celebrations in Islamabad?
my last post in that thread was
believe me i would be more then happy to see my people to become more like them in every field and behavior.but let me remind you those thing which were taboos few years ago are norms of today like voting rights of women racial discrimination and slavery. islam allow you to own slave but then why every Islamic country has abolished it.we were allowed to own slave with few condition met then why we abandon that practice let me tell you why because it was out dated practice with no place in today's society.same things happen with racial laws and women rights.world is changing and we need to change with it.i am not saying that we should blindly follow western or any other culture.but we should give them a chance to merge with ours to make a more tolerating and flexible Pakistan because if we don't world will move forward an we will be left behind and alone.look at turkey uae Malaysia they didn't lost their culture but simply merged it with international one and they are far more accepted then we are.

Source: Pakistan bans Valentine's Day celebrations in Islamabad? | Page 6
@Ammara Chaudhry
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do you know the difference between allowed and enforced. Google is creating half alims, half doctors, half philosopher everyday
 
Vapnope said:
I am all up for a liberal Pakistan, but why we have to accept Western Culture? We can have our very own culture based on equality and justice.
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you are contradicting yourself. a liberal culture means people have the 'liberty' or freedom to do as they want, that is, live their life as they deem fit. which means, that while one household could be very conservative, and their next door neighbors could be ultra modern, but neither should lecture the other on what to do/what not to.
if you decide people can not celebrate valentine's day if they want to, then you are automatically not a liberal.
 
somebozo said:
The question is why should we????
do westerners end up wearing shalwar kameez and eating nihari enmass??

We have very diverse indigenious culture and this Valentine day is just a commercial rubbish...
Click to expand...

Western people love, loves our (India Pakistan) food, wearing shalwar kameez is not practical in west because of the weather. Its fun to go to Toronto & Brampton area and watch Indian & Pakistani" FOB" wearing shalwar kameez in -10 or lower temperature.:rofl:

His question is more about the mullah power and less about the western celebrations.
 
You cannot just become modern by doing everything west do. We should not follow western culture in everything. That is true. But then we are already following Arabic culture. We have forgotten about South Asian culture completely.

At least learn something from Japan and China in this one.
 
waleed3601 said:
you are contradicting yourself. a liberal culture means people have the 'liberty' or freedom to do as they want, that is, live their life as they deem fit. which means, that while one household could be very conservative, and their next door neighbors could be ultra modern, but neither should lecture the other on what to do/what not to.
if you decide people can not celebrate valentine's day if they want to, then you are automatically not a liberal.
Click to expand...

Islam offers such freedom as well as long as the rules and regulations set by the Creator are not broken, if one wants to break such laws, they can if they want to but they would have to deviate away from Islam to do it, it is a very big misconception that Islam oppresses humanity and such misconception is fueled through sheer ignorance and lack of knowledge, let me give you a series of examples to reinforce my point.

According to the Quran and Hadith there are basically six criteria for observing hijab and hijab in layman terms is Allah SWT ki nazr mai gheero k samnai kapray mehnai ka sahi tareeqa:

1. Extent:The first criterion is the extent of the body that should be covered. This is different for men and women. The extent of covering obligatory on the male is to cover the body at least from the navel to the knees. For women, the extent of covering obligatory is to cover the complete body except the face and the hands upto the wrist. If they wish to, they can cover even these parts of the body.

All the remaining five criteria are the same for men and women.

2. The clothes worn should be loose and should not reveal the figure.
3. The clothes worn should not be transparent such that one can see through them.
4. The clothes worn should not be so glamorous as to attract the opposite gender.
5. The clothes worn should not resemble that of the opposite gender.
6. The clothes worn should not resemble that of the unbelievers i.e. they should not wear clothes that are specifically identities or symbols of the unbelievers’ religions.

Lack of knowledge and ignorance might lead some to believe that the concept of hijab oppresses women or is only meant for them and not for men as well but with an objective reasoning and comparing western lifestyle with Islam, one would realize as long as he is not biased that it is the other way around, in the western culture women are used as tools in marketing businesses, in fashion, in prostitution, in pornography and mega corporations etc, women in social environments are indirectly pressured to loose morality so that they can be part of the system, the very concept of Hijab threatens such systems and uplifts women as individualists.

Some after reading those 6 criteria's might use the first point as an excuse to raise the issue of inequality and oppression, so to answer them in Islam (keep in mind every thing that I am stating here is part of the Sharia and Khilafah) the reason why the awrah of men (exposing of the chest and hair etc) compared to women has been lowered is because the complete financial burden falls to men, women are not required to work but they can if they want to (as long as the work both men and women do is legal/Halal), so because the complete financial burden falls to men and some are most likely involved in heavy labor or construction work or some go to war etc a leniency has been given to them, In Islam both men and women are equal but they are not one and the same, women are emotionally, physically and physiologically different from men, In certain situations men exceed women and in other women exceed men so advantage has been given to women where men exceed and to men where women exceed, such is not practiced in western culture and laws, women and men are not safeguarded when they are at a disadvantage which gives rise to many problems like for example the 50% divorce rate in the US and the major cause for this being adultery and cheating on your spouse, pre-marital relationships and 50%-50% break away of property at the time of divorce makes the very concept of marriage obsolete, family life completely destroyed as senior citizens and old parents are thrown away in old homes etc, it is only through one's own inability to acquire knowledge and being ignorant about Islam (no offense intended) can lead to such misconceptions while there are profound answers to such problems in Islam given by the Creator, we don't need to follow or adopt western culture, we just need to learn who we are.

Valentine's day encourages pre-marital relationship which in turn causes a lot of problems later at marriage and destroys families and is apparently evident in western lifestyles and culture, you are welcome to follow them if you like but you would have to deviate away from the morality of Islam to do it.

@Horus @Oscar @WAJsal @Ammara Chaudhry @Zarvan @Neutron @Hell hound @DesertFox97 @Desert Fox
 
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Hell hound said:
this thread is made for continuation of discussion from Pakistan bans Valentine's Day celebrations in Islamabad?
my last post in that thread was
believe me i would be more then happy to see my people to become more like them in every field and behavior.but let me remind you those thing which were taboos few years ago are norms of today like voting rights of women racial discrimination and slavery. islam allow you to own slave but then why every Islamic country has abolished it.we were allowed to own slave with few condition met then why we abandon that practice let me tell you why because it was out dated practice with no place in today's society.same things happen with racial laws and women rights.world is changing and we need to change with it.i am not saying that we should blindly follow western or any other culture.but we should give them a chance to merge with ours to make a more tolerating and flexible Pakistan because if we don't world will move forward an we will be left behind and alone.look at turkey uae Malaysia they didn't lost their culture but simply merged it with international one and they are far more accepted then we are.

Source: Pakistan bans Valentine's Day celebrations in Islamabad? | Page 6
@Ammara Chaudhry
Click to expand...

Now western culture has taken the place Quran and Sunnah? (Naozobillah)
May be I am wrong in accessing your meaning but your thread tittle gave the same impression.
 
Waqkz said:
Valentine's day encourages pre-marital relationship which in turn causes a lot of problems later at marriage and destroys families and is apparently evident in western lifestyles and culture
Click to expand...

I just helped my daughter make home-made Valentines for everybody (boys and girls) in her 1st grade class. Do you really think that sounds like a bad thing? If anything it seems a bit Socialist.
 

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