SAC - FC-31 Grey Falcon Stealth aircraft for PAF : Updates & Debate

Djinn said:

LOL i feel like i am replying to a 10 year old.

Please note all this is from western sources and the history proves it that they are not very authentic especially American and Izzraeli, but still they serve well to refute your perception.
So applying your logic here proves that MIG25 is superior to F-15 AND F-18.
Last time i checked Mirages were FRENCH and not American, so try harder.
Yes PAF f-16's scored kills, but MIG's scored kills too.
Wow how conveniently you bothered to mention generations now but some how cunningly ignored to mention them while gloating over American kills against Iraq?
The rest of your post is solely based on your subjective assessment and thus allow me to say that since there are no International benchmarks to award jets from a particular country as best.........The notion that American jets are most superior is utterly flawed and partial.

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See the bold above:

1) So you have no facts to come back with and a ton of facts I provided, make you feel like you are talking to a child? I think there is only one child here and that's you.

2) I never "applied any logic" saying Mig-25 was superior to F-15 and the F-18, in historical kills I mentioned to you, there are many Mig-25 who were taken out by the -15 and -18's. You obviously can't read simple enlish!!!

3) Mirages ARE French. What you missed from that link was the F-4's which were a part of that attack on the Soviets. Again issue with reading simple English and paying attention to details !!

4) If the notion that American jets are superior is flawed. You should tell your PAF to immediately convert ALL jets to Mig-25 and 29 and SU-30. Per your logic, the PAF may not be able to defend themselves as the American planes aren't superior and the IAF is filled with superior planes like Mig-25, Mig, 29 and SU-30's.

Last but not least, don't respond to my post or add another one on here asking me to participate. When you learn a thing or two about REAL life, how the US jets have ruled the skies, whether it was the Russians or anyone else, you can come back and have a conversation.

@Windjammer, @Oscar : the gentlemen in the post above mine thinks the American jets are not superior and Mig 25, 29 and the likes, are much better. Will one of you please direct him towards a thread where some history is posted in terms of PAF using the American platforms and winning majority of the conflicts? He needs to learn the basics before he questions things.

Viper0011. said:

See the bold above:

1) So you have no facts to come back with and a ton of facts I provided, make you feel like you are talking to a child? I think there is only one child here and that's you.

2) I never "applied any logic" saying Mig-25 was superior to F-15 and the F-18, in historical kills I mentioned to you, there are many Mig-25 who were taken out by the -15 and -18's. You obviously can't read simple enlish!!!

3) Mirages ARE French. What you missed from that link was the F-4's which were a part of that attack on the Soviets. Again issue with reading simple English and paying attention to details !!

4) If the notion that American jets are superior is flawed. You should tell your PAF to immediately convert ALL jets to Mig-25 and 29 and SU-30. Per your logic, the PAF may not be able to defend themselves as the American planes aren't superior and the IAF is filled with superior planes like Mig-25, Mig, 29 and SU-30's.

Last but not least, don't respond to my post or add another one on here asking me to participate. When you learn a thing or two about REAL life, how the US jets have ruled the skies, whether it was the Russians or anyone else, you can come back and have a conversation.

@Windjammer, @Oscar : the gentlemen in the post above mine thinks the American jets are not superior and Mig 25, 29 and the likes, are much better. Will one of you please direct him towards a thread where some history is posted in terms of PAF using the American platforms and winning majority of the conflicts? He needs to learn the basics before he questions things.

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You sir are a dogmatist and this is rightly expected of you.
I never said MIG's are superior. I only illustrated that by using your "logic" If it escaped your understanding then i am not to be blamed.
PAF's love affair with American tech is a different topic & cannot be used as a benchmark to rule that "AMERICAN JETS ARE SUPERIOR"
No one can deny that IAF has got an edge over PAF.
A humble advise don't try to force your preposterous and fanatical whims on others when you don't have the stomach to digest reality. You quoted my post first, so i have every right to answer your gibberish as i please.
Trying to blow my statement out of proportion is only reflecting the limited mental agility that you posses.
Again i have never said 'American tech is inferior' but what i am highlighting is the absolute fact that, in the absence of any standard competition GLOBALLY it can't be ruled that American jets are the most advanced and the others are inferior
Calling in enforcements johnny! too chicken to fight your own battles? Anyways, i fight fire with fire so here goes. @Chinese-Dragon @Abingdonboy @ChineseTiger1986 @MilSpec @vostok @TaiShang @cnleio @Deino Would you all be kind enough to explain this to our American friend here that 'American jets are not based on martian tech' and others are not as inferior as they like to delude themselves into believing.

Djinn said:

You sir are a dogmatist and this is rightly expected of you.
I never said MIG's are superior. I only illustrated that by using your "logic" If it escaped your understanding then i am not to be blamed.
PAF's love affair with American tech is a different topic & cannot be used as a benchmark to rule that "AMERICAN JETS ARE SUPERIOR"
No one can deny that IAF has got an edge over PAF.
A humble advise don't try to force your preposterous and fanatical whims on others when you don't have the stomach to digest reality. You quoted my post first, so i have every right to answer your gibberish as i please.
Trying to blow my statement out of proportion is only reflecting the limited mental agility that you posses.
Again i have never said 'American tech is inferior' but what i am highlighting is the absolute fact that, in the absence of any standard competition GLOBALLY it can't be ruled that American jets are the most advanced and the others are inferior
Calling in enforcements johnny! too chicken to fight your own battles? Anyways, i fight fire with fire so here goes. @Chinese-Dragon @Abingdonboy @ChineseTiger1986 @MilSpec @vostok @TaiShang @cnleio @Deino Would you all be kind enough to explain this to our American friend here that 'American jets are not based on martian tech' and others are not as inferior as they like to delude themselves into believing.

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This is what happens when you engage a non-technical individual in a technical debate.

Djinn said:

At the end my original question:How do we ascertain which aircraft is better?

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You can't because all are slightly different, have more or less different philosophy of use, and has it's own advantages and limitations. All we can do is objectively study the capabilities and limitations of the aircrafts/munitions/tactics in question.

Based on these capabilities and limitations what fits, the immediate threat scenario is the better aircraft for you.

Viper0011. said:

@Windjammer, @Oscar : the gentlemen in the post above mine thinks the American jets are not superior and Mig 25, 29 and the likes, are much better. Will one of you please direct him towards a thread where some history is posted in terms of PAF using the American platforms and winning majority of the conflicts? He needs to learn the basics before he questions things.

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@Oscar I would like to learn some of those basics too....

MilSpec said:

I would like to learn some of those basics too....

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You should scroll up and see the previous content I had provided him from the Gulf war of the 90's, with dates and encounters, etc. That would give you a lot of stuff to read and learn about.

Viper0011. said:

You should scroll up and see the previous content I had provided him from the Gulf war of the 90's, with dates and encounters, etc. That would give you a lot of stuff to read and learn about.

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again not, operational history, but basics of combat platform evaluations.

Djinn said:

On the contrary other than subjective assumptions & assessments.......Do tell me which International benchmarks determine that US made aircraft's are superior to others?

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Hmmmm.....let's see. Maybe it's that they had assets (5th gen) decades before anyone thought of making one? Maybe its the fact that aviation terminologies themselves are created by them, which then everyone else tries to live up to? Maybe it's that they pioneered pretty much everything that we see in modern combat aircraft? Maybe, it's that they were already fielding technology (e.g. stealth) many years before anyone even thought it could be done? Maybe it's that some of their assets only came to be known about because they decided to retire them (SR-71)? Maybe it's that they make prototypes (the X series) just to research single/some aspect(s) of aircraft flight? Maybe it's the performance of their birds; maintenance, combat history, etc., etc.? I don't know, take your pick....

kakajee said:

we should get rid of corruption first...Indian meds recently banned in us

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Import alert... That what it is precisely.. Once you comply with USFDA and get you site FDA approved again by audit, one can again export medicine to USA.. Meanwhile, India is the largest supplier of generic medicine to USA outside USA...

We need this greyfalcon other wise we are at mercy of iaf

Iaf looking for F 35 now and along with T 50 we cant fight air war against these jets with 3 gen jets

Djinn said:

Would you all be kind enough to explain this to our American friend here that 'American jets are not based on martian tech' and others are not as inferior as they like to delude themselves into believing.

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Hi,

Sorry to interject---indeed the American jets are based on 'some kind' of martian technology. The rest of the world has not be able to manufacture the likes of a J58 engine ( for SR 71 )---which came out in 1960 I believe----and it does not look like one coming for another 25 years----.

So 70 - 80 years ahead of time and it is not martian technology.

The U S is so far ahead of other nations---that it has stopped production of new heavy bombers--because the ones produced in the early 60's---are being re-furbished to fight for another 30-40 years---the B52 bomber.

MastanKhan said:

Hi,

Sorry to interject---indeed the American jets are based on 'some kind' of martian technology. The rest of the world has not be able to manufacture the likes of a J58 engine ( for SR 71 )---which came out in 1960 I believe----and it does not look like one coming for another 25 years----.

So 70 - 80 years ahead of time and it is not martian technology.

The U S is so far ahead of other nations---that it has stopped production of new heavy bombers--because the ones produced in the early 60's---are being re-furbished to fight for another 30-40 years---the B52 bomber.

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Yes, recently whole fleet of B52 is going for upgrades.

As far as FC31, again its old cheap smoky Russian RD93 engines..Smoke literally a big turn off for any high tech looking plane..

HAIDER said:

Yes, recently whole fleet of B52 is going for upgrades.

As far as FC31, again its old cheap smoky Russian RD93 engines..Smoke literally a big turn off for any high tech looking plane..

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By the time it comes out chinese indigenous engines would be ready.So no worries on that front.

can the J-31 stand up to HAL FGFA?

PAK FA seems to be way ahead of the Chinese so HAL FGFA is based on it

usama fiaz said:

can the J-31 stand up to HAL FGFA?

PAK FA seems to be way ahead of the Chinese so HAL FGFA is based on it

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Can you enligyten us how you reached that conclusion?
Russians have cut order for pak fa to 24. Indians rumoured to 35...it seems to b in trouble....

Chinese are building atleast 3 new stealth fighters...with j 20 might b entering service soon..

What facts are behind your querry??

Mrc said:

Can you enligyten us how you reached that conclusion?
Russians have cut order for pak fa to 24. Indians rumoured to 35...it seems to b in trouble....

Chinese are building atleast 3 new stealth fighters...with j 20 might b entering service soon..

What facts are behind your querry??

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Sir did u know chinese j22 is copy of mig 1.4

usama fiaz said:

Sir did u know chinese j22 is copy of mig 1.4

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sir i have just ask a question if i am wrong plz tell me hoe j 31 is better than FGFA and PAk FA + F35

Mig 1.24 never got built...exists only in video games

There is no fighter called j 22 ...i even tried to google it... j 20 is not a copy of any thing previously seen or known..

You are wrong in a sense since no body actually knows any thing significant about russian chinese or american stealth fighters...so its premature to discuss superiority or inferiority...

But as a general rule; what we know so far f22 is likely to be best followed closely by j 20....
Pak fa likely to be the worse...

Rest google your self amd update your knowledge before making statements.. few people rry to keep it serious here