JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 6]

IrbiS · Feb 28, 2015

Bratva said:
Was F-16 started as Lightweight, cost effective Jet ?

Sure it was lightweight compared to let's say F-4, and its stable mates F-14, F-15, F-111. And cost effective only compared to them because the not to exceed price promised to European partners had exceeded even before 1980. But it was due to constant upgrades being implemented without which, it wouldn't have been the same as we know it. That's gonna happen if we wanna keep Thunder relative for today and tomorrow

MastanKhan · Mar 1, 2015

ACE OF THE AIR said:
Sir,
F-16XL started out as the F-16 SCAMP (Supersonic Cruise and Maneuver Prototype)

If this kind of JF-17 is one day part of the drawing board then what are your thoughts?

Hi,

My personal thinking is that the JF 17 is a little too small of an aircraft to go after a lots of modification on the structure.

With an upgraded engine---we might see slightly bigger wings---additional structural strength---a bigger nose cone and off course much talked about hard points.

When we ask for modifications and upgrades----that means that we are asking for is a more potent aircraft. What will give this aircraft deadly fangs would be an aesa---BVR's that is more potent than the current ones and off bore sight missiles---JHMCS.

That will make it a formidable aircraft---.

Viper0011. · Mar 1, 2015

ACE OF THE AIR said:
"Stealth variant JF-17 perhaps that might be able to super cruise.".
It does not specify any design parameters that would categorically be able to say this aircraft is a new design or the same with some sort of lower RCS configuration. With my limited ability to understand what stealth means in todays terms is an aircraft that is invisible to electronic early warning i.e radars but it can be visible by other means i.e human eye. I even know that there are many other ways in which it is possible to detect stealth..

A plane by design is either a "Stealth" plane or Not a Stealthy plane. That's really it, there is a whole science behind it. The gentlemen you are responding to (on this one topic) is correct. Super Cruise is a capability to reduce fuel usage from after burners and to reduce the Heat signature of the plane. But it's not because something is stealth. It can be used on the -16's also. Reducing radar signatures is also NOT stealth. Its just to delay the EW systems detection by reducing the radar signature and confusing radars with low signature and clutter. This may have been a good option before 2000 but in 2015, radars are sophisticated enough to give you a 3-D shape through electronic beam and turn the object into a shape of a jet on the screen, and totally distinct one object from another, like a plane from the ground clutter.

But, a true Stealth jet like the -22, you can point the beam to it, but it won't be drawn up on the screen as a plane till its very close to the radar like 25-30 miles I'd imagine, and this too, with the latest radars like the US has along with the Israelis, Europeans and some belonging to the Russians and Chinese.

From distance to all new or old radars, or for older systems entirely, the -22 is a GHOST!!! So its true that a jet is either a "Stealth" or not. You can toy with any advance jet all day long and use tactics to reduce radar observability but that's not stealth. It's reducing radar signatures.

MastanKhan · Mar 1, 2015

Hi,

When you build a super cruise aircraft---you have to consider the heat factor as well. You canopy design is different----your materials and fuselage design is different.

At super cruise speed the aircraft body heats up to a higher temperature than in a non super cruise aircraft. The aircraft would stretch a lot more at super cruise speeds than otherwise.

A plane like the Concorde that flew at super cruise all the time---its body stretched by 6 to 10 inches in length during peak flight----. When you have that kind of expansion---you have to keep the cost factor in mind as well.

Windjammer · Mar 2, 2015

Sunday, March 1st 2015 -
Argentine technical mission to China to assess the purchase of jet fighters

It's official: in the coming weeks a technical delegation from Argentina's Air Force will be travelling to China to assess the convenience of purchasing Chinese jet fighters to replace the obsolete French made Mirages. Only a month ago president Cristina Fernandez was in Beijing where she sealed an “integral strategic alliance” with China.
Negotiations remain secret but according to Argentine sources the purchase could range between 14 and 20 aircraft, basically the FC-1/F-17 'Thunder' which is manufactured by Chendu Aircraft Corporation in association with Pakistan. The single engine fighter is considered modern, affordable for developing countries, and has been tested in combat.

.

Bilal. · Mar 2, 2015

^makes no sense at all. First due to French connection and second due to significantly lower power ratings of M88 engine. If political issues for not there then EJ200 or it's uprated derivatives would have been ideal.

MastanKhan said:
Hi,

My personal thinking is that the JF 17 is a little too small of an aircraft to go after a lots of modification on the structure.

With an upgraded engine---we might see slightly bigger wings---additional structural strength---a bigger nose cone and off course much talked about hard points.

When we ask for modifications and upgrades----that means that we are asking for is a more potent aircraft. What will give this aircraft deadly fangs would be an aesa---BVR's that is more potent than the current ones and off bore sight missiles---JHMCS.

That will make it a formidable aircraft---.

But isn't the JFT airframe dimensions fairly comparable to that of F-16?

MastanKhan · Mar 2, 2015

Bilal. said:
^makes no sense at all. First due to French connection and second due to significantly lower power ratings of M88 engine. If political issues for not there then EJ200 or it's uprated derivatives would have been ideal.

But isn't the JFT airframe dimensions fairly comparable to that of F-16?

Hi,

It is a smaller aircraft---there are side by side pictures somewhere here.

Bilal. · Mar 2, 2015

MastanKhan said:
Hi,

It is a smaller aircraft---there are side by side pictures somewhere here.

But if we go by official stats on PAC site then its dimensions are extremely close to that of F-16.

Pakistan Aeronautical Complex Kamra - JF-17 Thunder Aircraft

Specifications · Lockheed Martin

MastanKhan · Mar 2, 2015

Bilal. said:
But if we go by official stats on PAC site then its dimensions are extremely close to that of F-16.

Pakistan Aeronautical Complex Kamra - JF-17 Thunder Aircraft

Specifications · Lockheed Martin

Hi,

When talking about spaces---an extra 4-5-6 inches space may give a thousand different options.

Remember---between a beautiful face and a not so attractive face---the difference is about 2 mm in the positioning of eye, nose, lips, cheeks.

Supposedly---all the space in the JF 17 is very well utilized to the maximum in its current

ACE OF THE AIR said:
Sir I do have a lot of respect for you but your Quote "If you are an educated person ---then you need to read up on it" is out of proportion. In my earlier post # 1655 that you have referred to states "Stealth variant JF-17 perhaps that might be able to super cruise.".

It does not specify any design parameters that would categorically be able to say this aircraft is a new design or the same with some sort of lower RCS configuration. With my limited ability to understand what stealth means in todays terms is an aircraft that is invisible to electronic early warning i.e radars but it can be visible by other means i.e human eye. I even know that there are many other ways in which it is possible to detect stealth.

As far as the technical aspect an aircraft can be stealth and also be able to super cruise or it is not stealth but has the ability to super cruise.

If we do try to look into what exactly is transonic and supersonic then we can come to a very simple conclusion that during transonic flight some parts of the aircraft may be supersonic but in supersonic flight the entire aircraft would be supersonic. Supersonic flight has a major weakness it can not be done for a long period, where as transonic flight can be done for a longer duration. In super cruise the supersonic flight is able to overcome the limitation of short distance i.e. in super cruise an aircraft can fly for a longer period of time in supersonic flight.

For attaining any kind of flight one requires a power plant i.e Engine. The most important aspect of super cruise is that the engine is more efficient i.e consumes less fuel.

At the end Sir your quote "Pakistanis on the average do not have enough brains to talk about technical issues or understand them."
IS RACIST, AND DEROGATORY.

I understand that you live in USA and have come across many Pakistani persons who are not that well educated because they have been trying to full fill their needs of hunger and poverty, for which they have worked their life or have gone for easy money by cheating the system. One must also look from an other point of view these people who have cheated the system and survived are rather more intelligent than the people who are making or running the system. It cannot be a crime till it is not defined to be a crime, hence crime leads and law follows.

As far as the AESA radar for JF-17 is concerned I fully agree. How ever I did read in some earlier post there were some issues regarding the limited power available form the current JF-17 engines that forces PAF in not to proceed with AESA radar due to the power is not enough to run the cooling system required for an AESA system.

I am unaware if this is still the case.

.

Hi ,

I know I have become just like my uncle---the man I hated very much in my teens. He was a part of the original team of pak nuc scientists who developed the device. He would get really upset at my Pakistani thinking and mindset---and I used to be pissed off at him all the time----it was like a war.

Now I laugh at the irony of speaking just like him and getting the same answers from young Pakistanis. My only regret is that I never was able to apologize to him for my behavior as he passed away in the late 80's.

Bratva · Mar 3, 2015

There is a chance Block-2 would be introduced in 23 march flypast

I FLY HIGH · Mar 3, 2015

Bratva said:
There is a chance Block-2 would be introduced in 23 march flypast

is there any link or info ?

Bratva · Mar 3, 2015

I FLY HIGH said:
is there any link or info ?

A calculated guess. @Stealth has mentioned there would 34 aircrafts in aerial display. As per recent pics of Block-2 which was taken 5 months back, It was almost ready and just needed a paint job. 5 months is a sufficient time to make multiple block-2 get ready

ACE OF THE AIR · Mar 3, 2015

MastanKhan said:
Hi,

When talking about spaces---an extra 4-5-6 inches space may give a thousand different options.

Remember---between a beautiful face and a not so attractive face---the difference is about 2 mm in the positioning of eye, nose, lips, cheeks.

Supposedly---all the space in the JF 17 is very well utilized to the maximum in its current

Hi ,

I know I have become just like my uncle---the man I hated very much in my teens. He was a part of the original team of pak nuc scientists who developed the device. He would get really upset at my Pakistani thinking and mindset---and I used to be pissed off at him all the time----it was like a war.

Now I laugh at the irony of speaking just like him and getting the same answers from young Pakistanis. My only regret is that I never was able to apologize to him for my behavior as he passed away in the late 80's.

Sir,
My parents are really old but what they always taught me was never underestimate the power of the brain, sometimes the answer that is unexpected might come from a child. Over the years I spent far away from my parents I came to realise that we Pakistanis try to fight and back stab our own people. This is sadly a reality today, once back in Pakistan I came across many well educated students my age or even younger who sadly think that the older generation does not understand us. What understanding us means in reality is that the elders do not treat us equally for them we are children and the way we think is not correct.

Sir my earlier post was never intended to make you apologize. Infect I am the one who should apologize for replying in a very blunt way.

Sir,
Though this is a trainer aircraft but it is very similar in design to JF-17.

Deino said:
Nice, but these DSI-featuring aircraft are JL-9G for the Navy like this one ...

View attachment 198584

By the way there are few "dramatic" errors alone in the first post: it is neither a WS-10 - much too large for this tiny bird - nor a WS-13 - as used on the JF-17 ... and also not a WS-14, since the Kunlun is more or less dead.

As far as I know the current JL-9s use a WP-13F(C) with a maximum trust of 4,400kg without and 6,450kg with afterburner.

Deino

houshanghai said:
single-seater JF17 art picture

two-seater JF17 art picture

The Picture of Twin seater JF-17B has a different look that the JF-17.
JF-17B is looking more like YAK-130 then F-16.

Secondly the spine if JF-17 is rounded where as the spine of F-16 block 52 is rectangular.

Mughal-Prince · Mar 3, 2015

MastanKhan said:
Hi,

When you build a super cruise aircraft---you have to consider the heat factor as well. You canopy design is different----your materials and fuselage design is different.

At super cruise speed the aircraft body heats up to a higher temperature than in a non super cruise aircraft. The aircraft would stretch a lot more at super cruise speeds than otherwise.

A plane like the Concorde that flew at super cruise all the time---its body stretched by 6 to 10 inches in length during peak flight----. When you have that kind of expansion---you have to keep the cost factor in mind as well.

Yes Khan sahib and if we consider all this then it is not so difficult to understand that pressure for prolong periods will increase wear'n tear and while super cruise frictional heat increases the probability for IR detection.

Mughal-Prince · Mar 3, 2015

Windjammer said:
Sunday, March 1st 2015 -
Argentine technical mission to China to assess the purchase of jet fighters

and has been tested in combat.

Windie pls elaborate :/

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JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 6]

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