Pakistan's Nuclear Submarine Project

The SC said:

Here are some small and efficient nuclear reactors that can be used for a submarine.

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Hi SC

Thanks for the pictures,i appreciate that,but i have various books dealing with marine reactors and their control systems for instance ,i have a book composed by Norwegian nuclear authority on various classes of soviet designed marine reactors right from late50s/early 60s uptill 90s!Itz close to 3MB in size and pakdef wont allow me to upload that here.

Donatello said:

Hi,

in case of Pakistan, a full fledged industry is not needed. If the total expected demand is , say, 30 naval nuclear reactors in India, in Pakistan, it is 3-5.

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Non sense.There isn't any need for 30 naval nuclear reactors in India or abroad.For example the 83 MW PWR we made for Arihant is used in only 3 Arihant class subs .We would have to upscale the design for our Arihant follow on class

me how much did India learn from 30 years of investment in LCA or Arjun? The truth is, India cannot build a fighter aircraft from ground up completely on it's own.....in the end...India ends up buying Sukhois/Rafale/Mirage/Migs.......same with the T-90 & T72 in lieu of Arjun.

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Usual off topic arguments as expected.India cannot make a fighter on its own... (Sweden too,can't)India haven't learnt anything in the development of LCA ( who else is developing mk2 & AMCA ?)

Donatello said:

.tell me how much did India learn from 30 years of investment in LCA or Arjun? The truth is, India cannot build a fighter aircraft from ground up completely on it's own.....in the end...India ends up buying Sukhois/Rafale/Mirage/Migs.......same with the T-90 & T72 in lieu of Arjun.

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Hi @Donatello
I agree with your statement regarding the demand,However it seems highly unlikely that chinese would give away their nuclear reactor designs straight away- they might help pakistan design one(but we have another issue facing us- and that is,even if lets say pakistan designed a reactor how will it "produce" them).Now Chinese might assist pakistan in making the reactor more sea worthy,reducing the decibels of noise that pumps and various other machinery generates(however their own track record with noise reduction particularly in their nuclear subs isnt as great).These are again speculations and i hate to indulge in speculations

As for your remarks on 30 year investment in LCA or Arjun,i would like to comment that it has given valuable insights into "designing" systems.A host of industries that were non existent in 80s came up simply because of various DRDO projects.Just to bring my case into perspective i would quote some examples-
(a)MIDHANI ltd- itz a pvt company specially dedicated to mass manufacturing of special grade steels,titanium alloys,composites and kanchan armour. Now designing a component is one thing and mass producing it is entirely another for that you need to have requisite INDUSTRY!Back in 70s and 80s there were no such pvt companies in india!

(b) Astra microwave corp- It is also a pvt company that specializes in making T/R modules.In fact LRDE's patented 4-channel TRMM design(8- T/R modules embedded ona single IC) are manufactured here.Some 20-30 years back you couldnt have imagined a pvt sector company in india making highly advanced patented T/R modules!
These are some of the important names that comes to my mind.
The reason why india ends up buying from abroad,is because india needs to maintain both high and medium capability systems in requisite numbers and unfortunately indian industry(public sector) hasnt been able to deliver high capability projects in certain sectors on time for the obvious lack of accountability and bad project management.But this scenario is likely to change as more and more pvt companies are coming in this sector- $110bn TATA has now been cleared to design and produce tanks in india- this is unprecedented!
In certain sectors though,indian research and development is pretty decent particularly radars- and a lot of patents have also been filed

@Oscar
I have got a book here on marine nuclear reactors,i mean their engineering aspect,how can i upload it?itz just 3MB in size! I am sure it would help a lot of members as it is not so maths heavy(just a bit of thermodynamics,metallurgical graphs,eqns and control loops are the ones involving heavy maths)

amardeep mishra said:

@Oscar
I have got a book here on marine nuclear reactors,i mean their engineering aspect,how can i upload it?itz just 3MB in size! I am sure it would help a lot of members as it is not so maths heavy(just a bit of thermodynamics,metallurgical graphs,eqns and control loops are the ones involving heavy maths)

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Check the uploading file size, there is usually a limit.

amardeep mishra said:

Hi @Donatello
I agree with your statement regarding the demand,However it seems highly unlikely that chinese would give away their nuclear reactor designs straight away- they might help pakistan design one(but we have another issue facing us- and that is,even if lets say pakistan designed a reactor how will it "produce" them).Now Chinese might assist pakistan in making the reactor more sea worthy,reducing the decibels of noise that pumps and various other machinery generates(however their own track record with noise reduction particularly in their nuclear subs isnt as great).These are again speculations and i hate to indulge in speculations

As for your remarks on 30 year investment in LCA or Arjun,i would like to comment that it has given valuable insights into "designing" systems.A host of industries that were non existent in 80s came up simply because of various DRDO projects.Just to bring my case into perspective i would quote some examples-
(a)MIDHANI ltd- itz a pvt company specially dedicated to mass manufacturing of special grade steels,titanium alloys,composites and kanchan armour. Now designing a component is one thing and mass producing it is entirely another for that you need to have requisite INDUSTRY!Back in 70s and 80s there were no such pvt companies in india!

(b) Astra microwave corp- It is also a pvt company that specializes in making T/R modules.In fact LRDE's patented 4-channel TRMM design(8- T/R modules embedded ona single IC) are manufactured here.Some 20-30 years back you couldnt have imagined a pvt sector company in india making highly advanced patented T/R modules!
These are some of the important names that comes to my mind.
The reason why india ends up buying from abroad,is because india needs to maintain both high and medium capability systems in requisite numbers and unfortunately indian industry(public sector) hasnt been able to deliver high capability projects in certain sectors on time for the obvious lack of accountability and bad project management.But this scenario is likely to change as more and more pvt companies are coming in this sector- $110bn TATA has now been cleared to design and produce tanks in india- this is unprecedented!
In certain sectors though,indian research and development is pretty decent particularly radars- and a lot of patents have also been filed

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Like i said, it is the economics that matters....aggregate demand dictates the production in short term.....and whether it is your own private money or government, you cannot simply create R&D for each and every thing.

You keep giving Indian examples, but it is flawed narrative to compare India vs Pakistan. 1.2billion people and 180 million people, the numbers don't add up unless Pakistan's per capita GDP is at least 6-7 times that of India.

India vs China makes more sense.......you tell me..how does India fare at that level?

UK had requirement for barely 200 Typhoons....they could easily build the fighter on their own...but they didn't....they partnered with three other nations so that the break even is possible due to overall larger demand......French didn't and look how their Rafale fared from a financial perspective.....French simply don't have domestic demand high enough...that is why they are desperate to export and make money. It has literally broken the back of their combat aerospace industry....

Look at the economic numbers for India and Pakistan.......how many automobiles India produces and how many does Pakistan produce?
Oil consumption?
etc.....India will always have 8-10 times higher demand than Pakistan, because it has higher population with slightly higher per capita GDP.

So again, while it might be feasible for a company to produce a radar or airplane in India because the total demand is 200 units for example....in Pakistan...it would be 20 units. The R&D cost would remain constant...fixed expense........it is not variable.....because whether you produce 1 unit or 10000000, it's the same R&D being used.

China will have no issues giving Pakistan access to it's nuclear reactors, because China's first export market in defense is always Pakistan....a nation that uses Western tech as well....so Chinese get to learn from us as well.....that helps them get a foot in the door......some of their new civilian nuclear reactors will be used by Pakistan......perhaps after that by some other nation as well....so i don't know why Chinese won't give Naval nuclear technology.....

amardeep mishra said:

@Oscar
I have got a book here on marine nuclear reactors,i mean their engineering aspect,how can i upload it?itz just 3MB in size! I am sure it would help a lot of members as it is not so maths heavy(just a bit of thermodynamics,metallurgical graphs,eqns and control loops are the ones involving heavy maths)

Click to expand...

Can you post it on a file hosting site?

Would love to have it.

gslv mk3 said:

Non sense.There isn't any need for 30 naval nuclear reactors in India or abroad.For example the 83 MW PWR we made for Arihant is used in only 3 Arihant class subs .We would have to upscale the design for our Arihant follow on class



Usual off topic arguments as expected.India cannot make a fighter on its own... (Sweden too,can't)India haven't learnt anything in the development of LCA ( who else is developing mk2 & AMCA ?)

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I gave the 30 units vs 3 units as an example.....with good reasoning skills you would know that......my point was, India will always have a higher net demand due to a larger population (and income) and a larger nation........it should be India vs China ..........or Pakistan vs Bangladesh............there is a reason why major defense contractors in the UK went out of business or merged together because the overall demand is less......but in USA the likes of Lockheed Martin, GD etc survive because their domestic demand is very high......again...simple numbers......

If India learned a lot from LCA, the next gen of IAF aircraft would be coming from within India...not some JVs with Russia (read PAKFA)and ToT from France (read Rafale). Anyway, that is outside the scope of this topic.

@Donatello

Your comments regarding economies of scale is absolutely true! if you can give me your gmail id ,i will send that book to you right away!

amardeep mishra said:

@Donatello

Your comments regarding economies of scale is absolutely true! if you can give me your gmail id ,i will send that book to you right away!

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Dude upload it on any file share site and share it with all of us.

amardeep mishra said:

@Donatello

Your comments regarding economies of scale is absolutely true! if you can give me your gmail id ,i will send that book to you right away!

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penumbra89055@gmail.com

Thanks.

@Donatello
Kindly check your inbox ,i've sent you the book and if possible please upload it as well- I am a bit busy hence couldnt upload on sharing site. I have plethora of research literature which i can probably share after feb!

amardeep mishra said:

@Donatello
Kindly check your inbox ,i've sent you the book and if possible please upload it as well- I am a bit busy hence couldnt upload on sharing site. I have plethora of research literature which i can probably share after feb!

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Thanks i got it.......and sure, send me as much as you have.....

@Oscar @WebMaster

Is it possible to have a PDF drop box type uploading site where members can share technical literature?
Would help all that way.

Donatello said:

Thanks i got it.......and sure, send me as much as you have

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@Donatello
That book i sent you is actually a research paper that was presented in a nuclear energy seminar in norway. It explains various generations of soviet designed reactors all the way from late 50s to early 90s!however it is not so rigorous in maths,i mean the authors have tried to keep the level of mathematics as low as possible.
I have got a very very decent book on missile guidance and control system but that is very maths heavy and requires the reader t have working knowledge of tensor calculus,state space analysis and various control strategies - i will share that book after feb

amardeep mishra said:

@Donatello
That book i sent you is actually a research paper that was presented in a nuclear energy seminar in norway. It explains various generations of soviet designed reactors all the way from late 50s to early 90s!however it is not so rigorous in maths,i mean the authors have tried to keep the level of mathematics as low as possible.
I have got a very very decent book on missile guidance and control system but that is very maths heavy and requires the reader t have working knowledge of tensor calculus,state space analysis and various control strategies - i will share that book after feb

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If you can do it now, i would be grateful. I have no problem with maths.....have a Electrical/Electronics engineering back ground

@Donatello
These are few of the excerpts i am sharing with you.It is perhaps one of the best books available on guidance and control system of missiles- what i like about this book is itz standard mathematics which is rigorous - this is nothing short of a gem for a control engineer like me

Donatello said:

If India learned a lot from LCA, the next gen of IAF aircraft would be coming from within India...not some JVs with Russia (read PAKFA)and ToT from France (read Rafale). Anyway, that is outside the scope of this topic.

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LCA MK 2 & AMCA...dear