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IR-150 passenger jet in first steps

Serpentine said:
Don't you think you just said what I said? I also said it will take few years, not that it is already being produced!

You are kidding right? Where did I talk about steel alloys and how did you came in to that conclusion? Mapna group has invested in developing Nicked-based single crystal super alloys and as I said, they have gone most of the way to produce it in industrial scale.

I suppose you should know that most Turbofan engines use nickel based super alloys with low amounts of Chrome, Titanium, Tungsten, Cobalt and Aluminium and other metals. What does it have anything to do with steel alloys that you brought up?

PS: Not all turbines are single crystals and most single crystals in turbines and jet engines are based on nickel. Most turbines in gas and energy industry are based on Nickel poly-crystalline super alloys. How did you come up with steel single crystals? I haven't heard of steel single crystals before, maybe you can educate me in this regard since you seem to know about it?
Click to expand...

Once, i looked up to production capabilities of Mapna when i saw the thread about gas turbines.... I think it was Steel alloy (mixed with nickel, chromium, etc...) I will research again if i'm mistaken or not.

Edit: @Serpentine shall we continue on this thread, (going off-topic ? ) or move to an other thread ? Turkish engine thread
 
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@New and Sinan

Compared to Turkey Iran can directly copy designs without destroying its relations with the big industrial players as it has no relations. Turkey cant do that.
Iran started with building its Toloue jet engine more than 10 years ago on the basis of a french design. Turkey has now developed something similar which is more or less a Turkish design.
But Iran is since 10 years in that business and Turkey just about to enter. Turkey can of course say that they have fully mastered the design but after 10 years production, Iran can say the same.

An Iranian 100kN turbofan engine which is not a DIRECT copy of the western design would be an epic task and the Iranians already described it as "national mega project". 5 Years from now is very optimistic.
But what Iran can do is a DIRECT copy of something like the CMF-56 and complete the project in 5 years. It wont have fears that GE closes its factories in Iran because there are none.

Serpentine already mentioned MAPNA, a company like this does not exist in Turkey. They are even working on single crystal nickel base super alloys for their large Siemens GT's. The technology of these turbine blades is the same as in turbofan jet engines, same alloy same process, same temperatures.

Another technological barrier, the fan blades could be mastered by the use of carbon fiber composite fan blades. Something all major turbofan developers are working on now. Again, compared to Turkey Iran again has experience on this from another field, uranium centrifuge rotors which use the same material. Of course time will be needed to apply the rotor technology to the fan blade tech. but Iran is already producing those rotors on industrial scale.

All the other matrials such as nickel base polycrystral alloys for low pressure turbine bladed and discs can be again sourced from MAPNA expertise as the same materials are used in their copies of Siemens turbines.
Titanium compressor blades are not really a technological barrier anyway today.

Turkey timeline is realistic and compared to Iran they have the benefit of international cooperation. But Iran has no issues with copyright and MAPNA as well as the uranium centrifuge program which act like boosters.

An Iranian designed turbofan in the CFM-56 for 2025 is not impossible, a true national mega project yes.
 
Sinan said:
Once, i looked up to production capabilities of Mapna when i saw the thread about gas turbines.... I think it was Steel alloy (mixed with nickel, chromium, etc...) I will research again if i'm mistaken or not.

Edit: @Serpentine shall we continue on this thread, (going off-topic ? ) or move to an other thread ? Turkish engine thread
Click to expand...

We better go on here, since making a turbofan engine is part of the 150-sits passenger jet, hence conversations can be about different components of the project.
 
Serpentine said:
We better go on here, since making a turbofan engine is part of the 150-sits passenger jet, hence conversations can be about different components of the project.
Click to expand...
Serpi sorry, I was mistaken.

Looked more detailed this time.

Parto, sister company of MAPNA which produces fan blades works with below Alloys.
In738LC, In739, In739 (Nickel Base)
FSX414 (Cobalt Base)
GTD111,GTD222 (Nickel Base)

MAPNA Turbine Blade Company - PARTO

Though one detail catch my eye; "Blades and Vanes are manufactured from NICKEL and COBALT based super alloys "

Maybe you know, Alp Aviation manufactures of stages 2,3,4 & 5 Titanium IBRs.
alp-1.jpg


But what i believe is we are only doing the finishing job, blades itselves must have been coming from US as i don't believe they would share the know how of making IBRs from A to Z.

In PARTO's page it says "manufacturing" can we think that alloys themselves coming from abroad and you are processing it ?


PeeD said:
@New and Sinan

Compared to Turkey Iran can directly copy designs without destroying its relations with the big industrial players as it has no relations. Turkey cant do that.
Iran started with building its Toloue jet engine more than 10 years ago on the basis of a french design. Turkey has now developed something similar which is more or less a Turkish design.
But Iran is since 10 years in that business and Turkey just about to enter. Turkey can of course say that they have fully mastered the design but after 10 years production, Iran can say the same.

An Iranian 100kN turbofan engine which is not a DIRECT copy of the western design would be an epic task and the Iranians already described it as "national mega project". 5 Years from now is very optimistic.
But what Iran can do is a DIRECT copy of something like the CMF-56 and complete the project in 5 years. It wont have fears that GE closes its factories in Iran because there are none.

Serpentine already mentioned MAPNA, a company like this does not exist in Turkey. They are even working on single crystal nickel base super alloys for their large Siemens GT's. The technology of these turbine blades is the same as in turbofan jet engines, same alloy same process, same temperatures.

Another technological barrier, the fan blades could be mastered by the use of carbon fiber composite fan blades. Something all major turbofan developers are working on now. Again, compared to Turkey Iran again has experience on this from another field, uranium centrifuge rotors which use the same material. Of course time will be needed to apply the rotor technology to the fan blade tech. but Iran is already producing those rotors on industrial scale.

All the other matrials such as nickel base polycrystral alloys for low pressure turbine bladed and discs can be again sourced from MAPNA expertise as the same materials are used in their copies of Siemens turbines.
Titanium compressor blades are not really a technological barrier anyway today.

Turkey timeline is realistic and compared to Iran they have the benefit of international cooperation. But Iran has no issues with copyright and MAPNA as well as the uranium centrifuge program which act like boosters.
Click to expand...
Thanks for detailed explanation.

PeeD said:
An Iranian designed turbofan in the CFM-56 for 2025 is not impossible, a true national mega project yes.
Click to expand...
What i'm trying to explain. :) Also i'm trying to explain this fact to Turkish users as well.
 
Sinan said:
Serpi sorry, I was mistaken.

Looked more detailed this time.

Parto, sister company of MAPNA which produces fan blades works with below Alloys.
In738LC, In739, In739 (Nickel Base)
FSX414 (Cobalt Base)
GTD111,GTD222 (Nickel Base)

MAPNA Turbine Blade Company - PARTO

Though one detail catch my eye; "Blades and Vanes are manufactured from NICKEL and COBALT based super alloys "

Maybe you know, Alp Aviation manufactures of stages 2,3,4 & 5 Titanium IBRs.
View attachment 158260

But what i believe is we are only doing the finishing job, blades itselves must have been coming from US as i don't believe they would share the know how of making IBRs from A to Z.

In PARTO's page it says "manufacturing" can we think that alloys themselves coming from abroad and you are processing it ?



Thanks for detailed explanation.


What i'm trying to explain. :) Also i'm trying to explain this fact to Turkish users as well.
Click to expand...

Honestly, I don't know now whether the alloys themselves are produced inside Iran, but as you said, they are most likely imported from Europe. I should ask this from some others in another forum and then will have the answer here.

I do know that Parto produces all those blades from scratch, perhaps except the raw materials. But these are all blades for gas turbines, no matter how big they are, they still may not be the best choice for a turbofan engine.

As I said before, MAPNA has funded a dedicated laboratory in Iran's university of science and technology in Tehran which focuses exclusively on producing Nickel-based single crystal which can be used in jet engines. As of 2 years ago, they had produced a lab scale sample of the super alloy and back then, they had finished 4 stages out of 6 to fully produce those single crystals. This is a different project from Mapna's general energy based turbines and as far as I know, the work on a turbofan engine has already begun, especially since Khamenei told Mapna staff to work on this project in his visit to company last year.

Also, if I'm not mistaken, we are already producing J-85 engines which are used in F-5s and Saeqe fighter jets. It's a small turbojet engine, but I think it's a good first step.

Producing the engine is the most important factor in making a plane, and the most difficult one. So making a fully capable Turbofan engine may take some years, but I believe it's definitely worth it.
 
Serpentine said:
Honestly, I don't know now whether the alloys themselves are produced inside Iran, but as you said, they are most likely imported from Europe. I should ask this from some others in another forum and then will have the answer here.

I do know that Parto produces all those blades from scratch, perhaps except the raw materials. But these are all blades for gas turbines, no matter how big they are, they still may not be the best choice for a turbofan engine.

As I said before, MAPNA has funded a dedicated laboratory in Iran's university of science and technology in Tehran which focuses exclusively on producing Nickel-based single crystal which can be used in jet engines. As of 2 years ago, they had produced a lab scale sample of the super alloy and back then, they had finished 4 stages out of 6 to fully produce those single crystals. This is a different project from Mapna's general energy based turbines and as far as I know, the work on a turbofan engine has already begun, especially since Khamenei told Mapna staff to work on this project in his visit to company last year.
Click to expand...

In Parto's page it says.
The products are produced by investment casting in vacuum and atmosphere condition.

The shop flour is equipped with advanced equipment and machinery including wax injection-assembly, automated ceramic shell processing, and automated handling system, advanced cutting, water jet, core leaching and finishing equipment, grain etching along with highly advanced quality systems. This workshop is supported by state of the art technology with vacuum and air melt furnaces.

Wax and Shell Unit: In the wax shop the wax moulds are injected and assembled as a cluster. The wax parts are dimensionally controlled by CMM. Having made the wax mould, the ceramic shell process is done in an advanced and fully automated shell line.

Pre Cast Process: In this workstation dewaxing, firing and moulds wrapping is carried out with advanced equipments and technology and automated handling system.

Pouring Unit: In this work station the pouring is carried out using different vacuum and air melt furnaces. The parts with weight up to 120 Kgs. can be poured in this work station.

Finishing Unit: After pouring and cut off and core leaching, the finishing operations are performed on parts in order to reach desired dimensions and surface conditions. These operations are performed by skilled operators and followed by CMM control and FPI test.

In general the casting shop equipped with advanced machinery and supported by advanced technology is capable of casting various types of Blades and Vanes.
Click to expand...

So, there is casting going on. But there is no info about which alloys are they able produce.

Serpentine said:
Also, if I'm not mistaken, we are already producing J-85 engines which are used in F-5s and Saeqe fighter jets. It's a small turbojet engine, but I think it's a good first step.
Click to expand...
Mate, forgive but i don't believe this... it is almost impossible get know-how of metallurgy of the components.

Serpentine said:
Producing the engine is the most important factor in making a plane, and the most difficult one. So making a fully capable Turbofan engine may take some years, but I believe it's definitely worth it.
Click to expand...
Well....what i'm saying is it's near to impossible.... like Peed said...if it's decided it's gonna be a gigantic project..10s of Billions $ will be poured, many new production lines and techniques needed, many trial and error phases, many many years... but i too think that it a necessity. As Turkey we have a long long way to Turbofans.
 
Sinan said:
Yeah, you are saying the same thing like my Turkish friends...

I wish, you would have read my post in the Turkish engine thread... You are not making a kebab. A Turbofan engine is no joke, it's the pinnacle of aviation industry and only a handful countries are capable of it. As they have 10s of years of experience R&D, trial error, metallurgy...

Mate, please look upon our Turbine engine road map.

View attachment 158150

You see ? Slowly evolving on each others experience... and i'm still saying making a jet fighters engine is extremely difficult even if we finish these projects...

Making compressors blades, (titanium, chrome-nickel) which will endure immense heat under immense tensile strength because of the engines rev, is insanely a difficult thing if you don't have the necessary metallurgy and production techniques.

It's not the same of a gas plants turbine generator's fans.....

God... :hitwall::hitwall::hitwall::hitwall:
Click to expand...

We are trying... Let's see the results!
 
Sinan said:
So, there is casting going on. But there is no info about which alloys are they able produce.
Click to expand...

Yes, I already said they do make the turbines inside Iran, but most probably, they are importing the alloys, aka raw materials to make turbines, I don't know about that yet.

Sinan said:
Mate, forgive but i don't believe this... it is almost impossible get know-how of metallurgy of the components.
Click to expand...
Let other members elaborate in this regard, but I think we were producing it, maybe I am wrong.

@SOHEIL Do we produce J-85? And if yes, can you please provide some pics or info? I'm sure I read about it somewhere.
Sinan said:
Well....what i'm saying is it's near to impossible.... like Peed said...if it's decided it's gonna be a gigantic project..10s of Billions $ will be poured, many new production lines and techniques needed, many trial and error phases, many many years... but i too think that it a necessity. As Turkey we have a long long way to Turbofans.
Click to expand...

It's not nearly impossible. Is it a very difficult project? yes indeed. Does it mean those who can make them are not humans? No, they are humans just like us. So why not? Also, it won't be as difficult as 60s or 70s to develop turbofan engines, many things have changed since then.
 
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Serpentine said:
Yes, I already said they do make the turbines inside Iran, but most probably, they are importing the allows, aka raw materials to make turbines, I don't know about that yet.


Let other members elaborate in this regard, but I think we were producing it, maybe I am wrong.

@SOHEIL Do we produce J-85? And if yes, can you please provide some pics or info? I'm sure I read about it somewhere.


It's not nearly impossible. Is it a very difficult project? yes indeed. Does it mean those who can make them are not humans? No, they are humans just like us. So why not? Also, it won't be as difficult as 60s or 70s to develop turbofan engines, many things have changed since then.
Click to expand...

J-85 converted to J-90 turbofan engine!

New saegheh running on J-90 turbofans ...
 
SOHEIL said:
J-85 converted to J-90 turbofan engine!

New saegheh running on J-90 turbofans ...
Click to expand...

We can't produce turbofan engines yet and unless I see its pictures, production lines and a plane equipped with that, I can't believe it's real. There is only a poster of J-90 project and it's said to be much more powerful than J-85, but until we see it in reality, it remains only as a work in progress.

J-85 on the other hand has a more simple basis, and it's an old turbojet engine and is easier to reverse engineer.
 

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