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How about China swaps its Type 055 for Russia's Yasen class SSN?

ChineseTiger1986 said:
This was the fluke in the old time warfare, but the modern warfare is really strictly emphasized about the generation of the weaponry. Just like the US army in the 1970s fought so badly in Vietnam, but they managed to steamroll over the much more mechanized army (compared to the Vietcong army) of Saddam Hussein. The modern warfare is the game changer, a F-15 or Su-27 has much less chance against a F-22 than a Mig-17/19 against a F-4.

BTW, the Type 093 should be around 6 boats, so the Type 095 should be anywhere around 6-12 being planned. The Type 097 is under the development, which is the routine as the next generation weaponry is already under the development as the current new generation is coming out of water.
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It could be a fluke. It could have been a lack of maturity in the all missile load of US fighters. It could have been overconfident US brass. Or it could have been very effective tactics employed by the NVA pilots which took advantage of the f-4 and f-105s bad capabilities while emphasizing the low observable capabilities of the Russia aircraft and taking advantage of their maneuverability. Actually it was all of these that contributed equal. Similarly we could see overconfidence in modern stealth be a problem. Older more maneuverable designs could out fight more recent variations. BVR gets a lot of attention, and as a tactic it is effective against other systems, but it has a problem that is exploited. First radar and targeting systems are vulnerable to electronic attacks that can provide false reads or vectors. Anything that is electronic or software based can be exploited. Second no pilot wants to kill a friendly and even with IFF and AWACS directing traffic, doubt still exists if you can't be certain that the aircraft on the other end is a friend. This was a problem during CAPs over Iraq in both US-lead wars.

A MiG-19 wouldn't be a match for a gen four or gen five system, but gen four and four point five systems can still outfight those of gen five.

ChineseTiger1986 said:
Seawolf is currently the biggest SSN, the USS Jimmy Carter is over 12000 tons in full displacement, whereas the project 885 is around 9000 tons.
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The Jimmy carter is also 100 feet longer than the other two so that is going to add a few tons to the overall displacement. For the Jimmy Carter its displacement is slightly over 12000 tons submerged, but the other two are slightly over 9000 tons submerged (8600 on the surface).

Superboy said:
Yasen is way bigger than Seawolf. Seawolf beam is 12 meters. Yasen beam is 15 meters. Yasen is 13,800 tons.
Russian Navy to get bulk of new generation nuke-fighting submarines — RT News
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The Yasen class is only 8600 tons in displacement surfaced, around 10000 submerged. The Borei class is closer to the figures you quoted at 14000 tons surfaced, but a whopping 24000 tons submerged. Of course the Borei's are larger and armed with heavy missiles so the difference in displacement is expected.
 
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SvenSvensonov said:
The Yasen class is only 8600 tons in displacement surfaced, around 10000 submerged. The Borei class is closer to the figures you quoted at 14000 tons surfaced, but a whopping 24000 tons submerged. Of course the Borei's are larger and armed with heavy missiles so the difference in displacement is expected.
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No way man. Yasen is huge, way bigger than Seawolf.

9138 * 15 / 12 * 119 / 108 = 12585

9138 = Seawolf weight

12 = Seawolf width

108 = Seawolf length

15 = Yasen width

119 = Yasen length

the extra weight of Yasen over 12585 is due to extra height over Seawolf
 
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Superboy said:
No way man. Yasen is huge, way bigger than Seawolf.

9138 * 15 / 12 * 119 / 108 = 12585

9138 = Seawolf weight

12 = Seawolf width

108 = Seawolf length

15 = Yasen width

119 = Yasen length

the extra weight of Yasen over 12585 is due to extra height over Seawolf
Click to expand...

Actually, you're right that it is larger, but the numbers are still off. The Severodvinsk, the first Yasen class sub is over 13800 tons submerged, but 8600 surfaced.

Russian Navy Accepts First in New Class of Nuclear Attack Submarine - USNI News

still I wasn't disputing that it is larger than the Seawolfs, because it is, just the figures you posted.
 
SvenSvensonov said:
Actually, you're right that it is larger, but the numbers are still off. The Severodvinsk, the first Yasen class sub is over 13800 tons submerged, but 8600 surfaced.

Russian Navy Accepts First in New Class of Nuclear Attack Submarine - USNI News

still I wasn't disputing that it is larger than the Seawolfs, because it is, just the figures you posted.
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Yeah, the US sub is usually heavier at surface, but lighter at submerge.

This is because Russia's sub is not full single hull structure, they use a mixture of single hull and double hull. The single hull can leave more room for the sub, but the double hull is better to reduce the noise. The reactor part of the sub can use with the double hull design.

BTW, although Yasen may not be comparable to Seawolf in every field, but it is still a good opponent.

To exchange Yasen for the Type 055 will be a win-win deal for both side.
 
SvenSvensonov said:
The Yasen class is only 8600 tons in displacement surfaced, around 10000 submerged. The Borei class is closer to the figures you quoted at 14000 tons surfaced, but a whopping 24000 tons submerged. Of course the Borei's are larger and armed with heavy missiles so the difference in displacement is expected.
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BTW, Bulava is only 37 tons, which is by far the smallest SLBM among the P5 nations, so I think the Borei class arming with 20 Bulava missiles should be more reasonable.
 
ChineseTiger1986 said:
BTW, Bulava is only 37 tons, which is by far the smallest SLBM among the P5 nations, so I think the Borei class arming with 20 Bulava missiles should be more reasonable.
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The Bulava won't be the only missile on-board Russian boomers though. The 40.3 ton R-29RMU, or Sineva, has also been discussed as a possible re-armament for the Borei class subs. It's still really light though. The 40 ton R-29RMU2, or Layner, is also being considered as an augment for the RSM-56 Bulava. The R-29RMU2 is a replacement for the Sineva.

The older Project 955 only has 16 missile tubes, while the newer Project 995A has twenty. The first three Borei class subs with be Project 995s, while the next seven will be Project 995As, starting with the "Knyaz Vladimir" - no "K" designation yet assigned.
 
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How many MIRVs will the Bulava carry? I've heard between 6 and 10 but I can't find the actual figure.
 
SvenSvensonov said:
The Bulava won't be the only missile on-board Russian boomers though. The 40.3 ton R-29RMU, or Sineva, has also been discussed as a possible re-armament for the Borei class subs. It's still really light though. The 40 ton R-29RMU2, or Layner, is also being considered as an augment for the RSM-56 Bulava. The R-29RMU2 is a replacement for the Sineva.

The older Project 955 only has 16 missile tubes, while the newer Project 995A has twenty. The first three Borei class subs with be Project 995s, while the next seven will be Project 995As, starting with the "Knyaz Vladimir" - no "K" designation yet assigned.
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Now all the mainstream SLBMs are solid fuel, so Russia right now will be walking with two legs by keeping the liquid fuel SLBM.

If Bulava has some really serious problems, then they can still have Sineva and Layner as the backup.
 
ChineseTiger1986 said:
The project 885 really has unique design and technology that even surpass the Seawolf class, so China could absorb it and incorporate into its future improved version of the Type 095 SSN.

As for Russia, China could offer the complete TOT of the Type 055, so Russia could fully focus to develop on its nuclear subs.

The Russian Navy now really needs the new large surface vessels to replace the Kirov and Slava class cruisers, and I think the 15000 tons Type 055 is perfect for that role.
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Such a degree of cooperation is possible only in the case of a fully-fledged political and military alliance.
 
vostok said:
Such a degree of cooperation is possible only in the case of a fully-fledged political and military alliance.
Click to expand...

Didn't Russia also negotiate the Mistral class with France?

BTW, we heard that some Russian websites mentioned that is possible to incorporate the Chinese platform with the Russian weapons.
 

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