Hate Muslims, make Money

Chak Bamu said:

Is race card any better or worse than Islamophobic card?

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It is worse.

Islam is an ideal and ideals transcends race, or should be. I hate communists, does that make me a racist ? No. If I find nothing attractive in Islam, why does that make me on the same plane as a racist ?

gambit said:

It is worse.

Islam is an ideal and ideals transcends race, or should be. I hate communists, does that make me a racist ? No. If I find nothing attractive in Islam, why does that make me on the same plane as a racist ?

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Nothing wrong really sir. Its just that your indifference to Islam ought not be shown via directly or indirectly supporting Islamophobia.

BTW though some among Muslims are overly concerned with race, ethnicity, etc... Islam takes a very active stance against racism, ethnocentricism, nationalism, and tribalism. Ideals are not always followed. Humans are weak.

Chak Bamu said:

Nothing wrong really sir. Its just that your indifference to Islam ought not be shown via directly or indirectly supporting Islamophobia.

BTW though some among Muslims are overly concerned with race, ethnicity, etc... Islam takes a very active stance against racism, ethnocentricism, nationalism, and tribalism. Ideals are not always followed. Humans are weak.

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No one is immune from hating something, some ideas, some groups, or some persons.

I will clarify what I said earlier about communists. I do not hate communists in general. I said it before and I will say it again: To date, there are only two successful types of dictatorship, the family unit and the monastery.

The family unit must be a dictatorship because some members are truly incapable of caring for themselves and need guidance until they proved capable. The monastery, which includes the nunnery, are composed of volunteers who chose to live sacrificial lives under the dictatorship of an overriding idea. So for these two types of dictatorships, I have great respect for the members and admire them.

What I hate is communism as practiced and that I have direct experience with it. I chose to hate communism in principle and some communists in particular.

Islam -- as practiced -- have not even half way the impact to my life, despite Sept 11, 2001, the way communism and communists have. However, I am not blind to the way Islam is practiced that goes contrary to my principles and that made me attentive to Islam, not indifference. No one is truly indifferent when confronted with contrasting, competitive, and worst of all conflictive ideologies. A religion is what its believers DO, and far less what they say, and from that perspective, it is impossible for us to live in an intellectual and moral vacuum precisely because we do so many things in consequence of our beliefs, so anyone who says he/she is indifferent to Islam or Christianity or Buddhism or whatever else out there, he/she is a liar.

I am not indifferent to Islam but attentive to what its believers does. If challenging Muslims because what they do conflict with my principles make me an 'Islamophobe', then so be it. By the same coin, if Muslims are going to toss out the charge of 'Islamophobe' to anyone who challenges them, then the Muslims should have the intellectual honesty and admit that they too are haters because they constantly challenges anyone, from Jews to Christians to atheists, just because these people are non-believers.

gambit said:

No one is immune from hating something, some ideas, some groups, or some persons.

I will clarify what I said earlier about communists. I do not hate communists in general. I said it before and I will say it again: To date, there are only two successful types of dictatorship, the family unit and the monastery.

The family unit must be a dictatorship because some members are truly incapable of caring for themselves and need guidance until they proved capable. The monastery, which includes the nunnery, are composed of volunteers who chose to live sacrificial lives under the dictatorship of an overriding idea. So for these two types of dictatorships, I have great respect for the members and admire them.

What I hate is communism as practiced and that I have direct experience with it. I chose to hate communism in principle and some communists in particular.

Islam -- as practiced -- have not even half way the impact to my life, despite Sept 11, 2001, the way communism and communists have. However, I am not blind to the way Islam is practiced that goes contrary to my principles and that made me attentive to Islam, not indifference. No one is truly indifferent when confronted with contrasting, competitive, and worst of all conflictive ideologies. A religion is what its believers DO, and far less what they say, and from that perspective, it is impossible for us to live in an intellectual and moral vacuum precisely because we do so many things in consequence of our beliefs, so anyone who says he/she is indifferent to Islam or Christianity or Buddhism or whatever else out there, he/she is a liar.

I am not indifferent to Islam but attentive to what its believers does. If challenging Muslims because what they do conflict with my principles make me an 'Islamophobe', then so be it. By the same coin, if Muslims are going to toss out the charge of 'Islamophobe' to anyone who challenges them, then the Muslims should have the intellectual honesty and admit that they too are haters because they constantly challenges anyone, from Jews to Christians to atheists, just because these people are non-believers.

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Hutus killing Tutsis in churches were not worshiping Christ. Take that as a 'DO'. I hope this takes care of semantics and verbal gymnastics.

Religions have different levels of adherence among different people. A nominal Muslims can not be taken as a test case. You should realize this. You find nothing attractive in Islam as you said, fine. Forgive me for assuming that you were indifferent. If you were attentive with a negative view, then you should have clarified this earlier. Attention with negative view translates as something akin to phobia; may be a degree less. I congratulate you on your ability to maintain fine distinctions that are hard to fathom for people like me.

You take religion seriously, it seems. Extend the same courtesy to others on the opposite / conflicting side. I find nothing attractive in Christianity, and yet I do not consider myself as someone who dislikes Christianity. In fact I like it a bit for being closer to Islam than other religions. I am not even much attentive to Christianity. You can choose to practice benign indifference but you do not, because you think of Islam as competition. Therein lies dilemma. You can not openly say that you are an Islamophobe, perhaps because that sounds wrong to you. Yet you can not say that you are NOT an Islamophobe because that would be wrong. I can not find a middle ground here in your argument and I am compelled to ask you: how do your manage such double-think in practice?

pakdefender said:

If you condemn Zaid Hamid , then do you also Condemn Robert Spencer

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You said how would you feel if some Muslim came up on national TV and made fun of Hinduism?

Zaid bhai goes on national TV he says Hindus need to be killed and Pakistani journalists applaud him. The west is a saint compared to Pakistan and Islamic countries where preachers go on national TV and insult and threaten to kill non-Muslims.

ShivajiBhosale said:

You said how would you feel if some Muslim came up on national TV and made fun of Hinduism?

Zaid bhai goes on national TV he says Hindus need to be killed and Pakistani journalists applaud him. The west is a saint compared to Pakistan and Islamic countries where preachers go on national TV and insult and threaten to kill non-Muslims.

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1. ZH may be (if at all) applauded by select few and not the mainstream Pakistanis or Muslims for that matter; BTW I am curious to know the names of journalist(s) who applaud ZH or his childish talk.

2. ZH and/or his likes (the so-called extremist Islamic political parties such as JI) have always been rejected by the mainstream Pakistanis in every electoral contest, but Modi & Co (Gujrat massacre fame) has been brought into power by the mainstream Indians. Modi & Co's public talk and take on Muslims (Muslims = dogs) is not any different than that of ZH and his likes. ZH may have threatened or wished to kill Hindus, but Modi & Co has practically demonstrated it in Gujrat and elsewhere, and practically got away with it enjoying complete support from mainstream Hindu majority.

gambit said:

A religion is what its believers DO, ...

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Incorrect, otherwise Christian Europe would have not:

1. colonized almost entire world.
2. practically wiped out indigenous people of North and South Americas.
3. enslaved millions of Africans (and other non-white races).
4. killed millions of humans in 1st and 2nd world wars.
5. nuked Japans cities with mostly civilian population.
6. invaded and killed millions of human beings in Korea, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia and elsewhere.
7. imposed Jim Crow laws.
8. invaded Iraq on false pretext (aka intelligence failure).
9. supported Israeli aggression and occupation.

In Bible, none of the above is required from its followers to be a good practicing Christian; in fact, what is required is quite contrary to that.

syedali73 said:

. ZH and/or his likes (the so-called extremist Islamic political parties such as JI) have always been rejected by the mainstream Pakistanis in every electoral contest, but Modi & Co (Gujrat massacre fame) has been brought into power by the mainstream Indians. Modi & Co's public talk and take on Muslims (Muslims = dogs) is not any different than that of ZH and his likes. ZH may have threatened or wished to kill Hindus, but Modi & Co has practically demonstrated it in Gujrat and elsewhere, and practically got away with it enjoying complete support from mainstream Hindu majority.

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I hope your views about Modi are true.

Chak Bamu said:

Hutus killing Tutsis in churches were not worshiping Christ. Take that as a 'DO'. I hope this takes care of semantics and verbal gymnastics.

Religions have different levels of adherence among different people. A nominal Muslims can not be taken as a test case. You should realize this. You find nothing attractive in Islam as you said, fine. Forgive me for assuming that you were indifferent. If you were attentive with a negative view, then you should have clarified this earlier. Attention with negative view translates as something akin to phobia; may be a degree less. I congratulate you on your ability to maintain fine distinctions that are hard to fathom for people like me.

You take religion seriously, it seems. Extend the same courtesy to others on the opposite / conflicting side. I find nothing attractive in Christianity, and yet I do not consider myself as someone who dislikes Christianity. In fact I like it a bit for being closer to Islam than other religions. I am not even much attentive to Christianity. You can choose to practice benign indifference but you do not, because you think of Islam as competition. Therein lies dilemma. You can not openly say that you are an Islamophobe, perhaps because that sounds wrong to you. Yet you can not say that you are NOT an Islamophobe because that would be wrong. I can not find a middle ground here in your argument and I am compelled to ask you: how do your manage such double-think in practice?

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Which religion is the 'true' one for mankind ? Do you know ? How do you know there is a God in the first place ? Truth is...You do not know the answer to both questions. All you have is faith and faith is belief from apprehension, not comprehension. Science also produces faith but it is belief from repeated examinations and consistent reinforcement from evidences that eventually produces comprehension.

If the believers of a particular religion do certain things with statistical consistency, like Muslim dominated countries oppression of Christians for example, then regardless of whatever 'holy' texts that religion may say, observers will come to associate those things and/or acts with that religion. No semantics or verbal gymnastics here. Just simple common sense.

Why should I not consider Islam as in competition with other religions ? If anything, it would be absurd not to think so. All religions have programs to actively seek out non-believers and attempts to convert them, no ? Ever heard of the phrase 'apologetic faith' ?

Apologetics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

...is the discipline of defending a position (often religious) through the systematic use of information.

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All religions, especially the Abrahamic ones, have active programs to train apologists, formally and informally. I see Muslim apologists here often enough.

So when we add evangelists and apologists, what do we have ? How about competition among religionists for the souls of this planet ? It is not what I think but what is true -- that Islam is a competitor on this buffet table of religions.

To have a 'phobia' is to have an irrational aversion to something. So how can I have a 'phobia' to Islam when I have had direct experience -- negatively -- with Muslims in the land of Islam's origins, directly and thru third parties observed its practices, and examine the behaviors of its believers in the light of its sacred text -- The Quran ? How is all that irrational ?

Irrationality: Irrationality is cognition, thinking, talking or acting without inclusion of rationality. It is more specifically described as an action or opinion given through inadequate use of reason, emotional distress, or cognitive deficiency.

Whatever dilemma you think about me having, it simply does not exist.

syedali73 said:

Incorrect, otherwise Christian Europe would have not:

1. colonized almost entire world.
2. practically wiped out indigenous people of North and South Americas.
3. enslaved millions of Africans (and other non-white races).
4. killed millions of humans in 1st and 2nd world wars.
5. nuked Japans cities with mostly civilian population.
6. invaded and killed millions of human beings in Korea, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia and elsewhere.
7. imposed Jim Crow laws.
8. invaded Iraq on false pretext (aka intelligence failure).
9. supported Israeli aggression and occupation.

In Bible, none of the above is required from its followers to be a good practicing Christian; in fact, what is required is quite contrary to that.

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This discussion is clearly over your head, kid. Go back to wherever sandbox you came from and grow up a bit.

gambit said:

This discussion is clearly over your head, kid. Go back to wherever sandbox you came from and grow up a bit.

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A better reply was expected from someone who somehow convinced (it surely takes a whole lot of it) himself to align with enemy and betrayed his motherland and countrymen.

dravidianhero said:

Wrong.spreading the message of Islam is itself spreading hatred.Entire quran is filled with verses how idolaters(which includes Hindus) are going to be tortured in hell.It is full of insults to non Muslims.It calls pagans and Jews hypocrites.When I read Quran,I felt it was directly threatening and degrading Hindus.Quran is the only religious book that talks about all other religions in offensive and insulting manner.

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P-propaganda!
Did you even read the Quran? Or did you cherry pick quotes?
That's what you guys like to do.
Hey look at X! Forget A, B, and C. LOOK AT X!
Reported, and hopefully banned.

ShivajiBhosale said:

You said how would you feel if some Muslim came up on national TV and made fun of Hinduism?

Zaid bhai goes on national TV he says Hindus need to be killed and Pakistani journalists applaud him. The west is a saint compared to Pakistan and Islamic countries where preachers go on national TV and insult and threaten to kill non-Muslims.

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You take them seriously? It's just for the ratings. Aamir Liaquat was giving babies away a few months ago, a reporter was barging into the home of a transgender, and almost every day you'll see debaters going hoarse because of screaming each other. Only a few days ago, some politician bloke was telling another chap he wished his brother was killed.

gambit said:

True...An honest dictator is better.


If we have the same goals -- no.

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Ends justifies the means, eh? Well, I'm glad you're in a minority. Thank god fellows like Ron Paul and the libertarians have realized how retarded American foreign policy was.

Mugwop said:

Someone is paying these racist Islamaphobes to perpetuate their propaganda. And that someone is from a wealthy family in England.

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Who are they? Just asking.......!!

syedali73 said:

A better reply was expected from someone who somehow convinced (it surely takes a whole lot of it) himself to align with enemy and betrayed his motherland and countrymen.

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Do not pretend you know anything substantive about my background, kid. I can tell from your comments that what you know, even liberal professors would dismiss you as an intellectual lightweight about the subject.

gambit said:

Do not pretend you know anything substantive about my background, kid. I can tell from your comments that what you know, even liberal professors would dismiss you as an intellectual lightweight about the subject.

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There are one hundred ways to know why a monkey is a monkey and not a human; Every single organ can be dissected and compared with that of a Human being and every single gene can be deciphered, and epigenetic factors behind the expression or suppression of those genes can be studied. However, all this research does not change the fact that it was still a monkey and not a human being.

What were the factors that turned you against your own people is none of my business, nor does it interest me, but they have surely done some catastrophic damage to your conscious that you can no longer appreciate the difference between right and wrong, good and bad, justice and oppression etc.

One, my friend, is judged not based on the motives or psychological complication but solely on his/her actions. You are good at aviation or whatever professional expertise, but humanity and related issues are beyond your comprehension.

Hiptullha said:

P-propaganda!
Did you even read the Quran? Or did you cherry pick quotes?
That's what you guys like to do.
Hey look at X! Forget A, B, and C. LOOK AT X!
Reported, and hopefully banned.

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So, would agree that you're say forget X, look at A, B, and C? If so what is that called?

dravidianhero said:

Wrong.spreading the message of Islam is itself spreading hatred.Entire quran is filled with verses how idolaters(which includes Hindus) are going to be tortured in hell.It is full of insults to non Muslims.It calls pagans and Jews hypocrites.When I read Quran,I felt it was directly threatening and degrading Hindus.Quran is the only religious book that talks about all other religions in offensive and insulting manner.

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And Christians and Jews don't spread hatred?