First Project-15B Bangalore-class DDG hull : satellite pics

spectribution said:

barak 1 is like buying Maruti 800 today! Relaible but obsolete!

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Obsolete?
Care to explain........

Dillinger said:

Maitri won't require the Revathi radar, I had the same thoughts (due to the illustrations of the Maitri naval variant which show a corvette class ship with a revathi radar marked out) but the Revathi itself is a VSR and not a fire directing radar like the Barak-1's STGR, the Maitir does not need CLOS and so will not need the Revathi.

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@ Dillinger, @sancho is there any news rgding or process in jv of maitri srram coze last time I read it will stuck due to work share

sudhir007 said:

@ Dillinger, @sancho is there any news rgding or process in jv of maitri srram coze last time I read it will stuck due to work share

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Lolwa chal raha hai sahib, kyan batlayen naya ab.

The A-5 said:

^^ Above two images, taken in Oct 2013, and May 2014 respectively, show the progress on first P-15B
hull fabrication. The keel-laying ceremony for the first ship, INS Bangalore, happened in between,
in January 2014.

Thanks to shipone at *** for the images.

To the warship experts here - @Dillinger @Penguin - Sirs, any comments? Believeing
the "slots" on the front to be VLS areas...it looks somewhat different from P-15A ? The SAMs
seem to have been moved to front and BrahMos to rear. The slots toward the stern don't appear
very clear

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Nah, it is a pair of Universal Launchers for Brahmos forward and the 'trench' behind it is for Barak-8ER.

Dillinger said:

Oh I know we can be weird, P75I, Vikramaditya, no DSRVs, no ASW helos but more ships being inducted....that does not detract from the improbability of what PSK or Shukla are propagating...give it time..you'll see.

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Indian bureaucracy at it's best, but these guys do have better sources than mainstream media who simply look up wikipedia.

Koovie said:

Obsolete?
Care to explain........

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1> Very short range 12 KM

2> Can intercept supersonic targets around 6 km only.

3> Requires Elta m-2221 fire control radar for targetting.

4> Expensive and not available in bulk.

5> Not effective against supersonic missiles like Klub, P 800, etc.

The A-5 said:

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They've made good progress.

This is how it looked in October 2013.

spectribution said:

PK Sengupta said as per his sources the INS Kolkata has 64 Barak 2 missiles. It has 32 ready to fire VLS and 32 rounds that are stored internally with each 2 X 8 vls section having additional 2 X 8 rounds internally that are reloaded internally using a hydraulic mechanism like in the RBU 6000 canisters once you take out the spent canisters from the vls using a crane. This feature was provided for in order to allow more missiles during pro acted campaigns.

If you look at forward area of the P 15 B it has 2 X 8 sections to allow Brahmos missile. Behind it an even bigger cavity is allowed in order to provide space for 2 X 8 VLS cells of Barak 8. However given volume of space occupied by Barak 8 VLS, this large a space is totally unnecessary meaning just one thing - 32 VLS ready to fire, 32 reloads!

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I think it is quite likely P15B is only an incremental development of P15A: it will be very similar. Key dfferences (different search radar, longer 120km Barak8ER rather than 80km Barak-8). The layout will be near identical. As for the above, in another thread this was debated (and I am NOT going to repeat myself here). The physical evidence is 4x8 Barak-8. All else (internals) is speculation and suffice it to say the above solution would be the WORST of 2 worlds: a VLU reloading from a magazine, while dependent on a crane on another ship.

As for that bigger cavity... it is bigger in TALLNESS due to Barak-8ER. It is NOT bigger in deck area (it just doesn't seperate into 2 holes, 1 for each VLU. You are looking in the above GE pics at lower decks, hence you don't see a cavity yet for reloading device and magazine of the pair of RBU6000.

Compare the 'trench' behind the 2 Brahmos launchers: it is not wider than 2 vlu's with just a bit of space in between.

spectribution said:

I asked Ajai Shukla in mail. He said same exact thing. Even at defence expo 2014 officials said another 16 - 32 rounds can be carried on board. Remember this is not MK 41 or other western VLS. Hence this arrangement can happen. Infact look at the picture and compare for yourself.

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Are you it that doesn't mean 'space and weight reserved' for additonal VLU's? That would make much more sense.

spectribution said:

How can two people give the same explanation to a similar problem? FRV always accompany the ship with a crane! In the USN the ships used a strike down crane module that was hidden below the deck and used to clear spent casings. But because of limited weigh carrying capacity and sea state issues the cranes were done away with.

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TRY USING A FAT *** CRANE ON A FLEET REPLENISHER TO LIFT SPENT BARAK 8 CANISTERs FROM THE P15A/B VLUs TO MAKE SPACE FOR INTERNALLY CARRIED (<WHAT MORON THOUGHT OF THAT?!) RELOADS WHILE AT SEA IN THE MIDDLE OF THE INDIAN OCEAN > EPIC FAIL!

THE USN STRIKE DOWN CRANE IS NOT ON THE REPLENISHER BUT PART OF A LARGE VLU FARM (WHICH P15A/B DOESN"T HAVE) AND WAS ABANDONED BY THE USN> NOT EFFECTIVE

PLEASE DO NOT START THAT DISCUSSION HERE ANEW!

Dillinger said:

Maitri won't require the Revathi radar, I had the same thoughts (due to the illustrations of the Maitri naval variant which show a corvette class ship with a revathi radar marked out) but the Revathi itself is a VSR and not a fire directing radar like the Barak-1's STGR, the Maitir does not need CLOS and so will not need the Revathi.

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Maitri supposedly is MICA based as far as missile front end is concerned. Therefor is will be IR Homing or Active Radar Homing. I.e. fire and forget. So, not target illuminators are required compared to semi-active radar homing missiles like ESSM, and no missile director such as you find with command-to-line-of-sight missiles like Barak 1, Crotale/HQ7. All Maitri needs is a que from a 3D radar, any 3D radar.

Dillinger said:

I did, its hogwash, the "extra rounds" talk is simply born out of the fact that the Kolkata has place for hosting an extra farm of 2*8 VLU for the Barak-8s IF the IN opts for it, the design allows for that. There is no "hydraulic system", again VLUs CANNOT be reloaded beneath deck, there is no apparatus for lifting the rounds from the below deck magazine to the top deck, there are no cranes for lifting the spent canisters from the VLU's open hatch and lowering the fresh round in. So unless the IN is completely bonkers they will not opt for such an arrangement. The laws of reality do not change with differing time zones. The extra rounds are just that, space left fallow for retro fitting extra VLUs if the IN so wishes. AND before people jump up and down about rotary systems, rotary systems are not reloadable VLUs and this (the Barak-8's launch mechanism) is indeed a VLU.

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That is what is meant by ' space and weight reserved for future installation'

spectribution said:

Indian bureaucracy at it's best, but these guys do have better sources than mainstream media who simply look up wikipedia.



1> Very short range 12 KM

2> Can intercept supersonic targets around 6 km only.

3> Requires Elta m-2221 fire control radar for targetting.

4> Expensive and not available in bulk.

5> Not effective against supersonic missiles like Klub, P 800, etc.

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1. RAM block 1 and 2 and its Chinese counterpart are in that KM bracket. Does that make them obsolete?
2. That IS the purpose of CIWS, whether gun or missile based. Besdies that, how so can an 11km missile intercept only at 6 km? Radar target detection is NOT limited to missile range of 11km so there is not technical reason for a 6km intercept limit > is balony.
3. Yeah, so? ESSM requires APAR or some other illuminator: does that make it obsolete?
4. Beg pardon? Barak has been delivered in in the hundreds of missiles to India.
5. Beg pardon? Even gun CIWS like goalkeeper can intercept supersonic missiles. It is just safer to do it farther out. If you can hit supersonic aircraft and subsonics seaskimmers, you can also hit supersonic missiles

Barak is a mature, operational anti-missile point defense naval surface-to-air missile system, designed to protect combat vessels against sea skimming missiles and aircraft threats.

Barak is effective against highly maneuvering, supersonic and low altitude threats (sea skimmers), as well as low radar cross section (RCS) targets. It is also effective against a full variety of free space threats.

The missile system is designed to engage multiple targets simultaneously. BARAK is in operational service in the naval forces of several countries.

Main Features:

• Vertical launch
• Unrestricted 360° azimuth coverage
• Maintenance-free eight cell launcher
• All missiles ready for instant firing
• Radar CLOS guidance
• Operation in day, night and adverse weather conditions
• Short reaction time
• Very short minimum range
• Missile high rate-of-turn
• Automatic and semi-automatic engagement
• High kill probability

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http://www.rafael.co.il/Marketing/354-928-en/Marketing.aspx

BARAK-8 Air & Missile Defense System

Naval and based, short to long range, point & area

Main Features Naval Implementation:

• From supersonic skimmers to high altitude targets by all weather
• Multiple simulataneous engagements in severe saturation scenarios
• Stand-Alone data link optimizing task forces and missiles coordination
• Vertical launch active missile, easily fitting on existing or new ships

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http://www.iai.co.il/2013/34408-36713-en/IAI.aspx

Yea Kaha chala

@Dillinger @Penguin - Kind sirs, if there is space & weight saved for another set of 32 Barak-8s, then why didn't the morons
install it all right now? If IN actually wants it sooner or later, it serves to just put in a VLS there - let the IN command
decide whether to put missiles in them right now or not.

If IN doesn't need any more space, then why was it designed like that? They might as well put provision for a
set of wings & jet engine, for when IN decides to make ships fly

--

And also, Dillinger sir, are you sure about Barak-8ER for P-15B with 110-120km range?

The A-5 said:

@Dillinger @Penguin - Kind sirs, if there is space & weight saved for another set of 32 Barak-8s, then why didn't the morons
install it all right now? If IN actually wants it sooner or later, it serves to just put in a VLS there - let the IN command
decide whether to put missiles in them right now or not.

If IN doesn't need any more space, then why was it designed like that? They might as well put provision for a
set of wings & jet engine, for when IN decides to make ships fly

--

And also, Dillinger sir, are you sure about Barak-8ER for P-15B with 110-120km range?

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@Dillinger Sir, when are you planning to tell A-5 your age?<sorry abt the off-topic post>

To answer your question, ships and aircraft always carry empty space in their superstructure/fuselage. The percentage of free-space might be as high as 30% of overall space in some designs. This is a deliberate effort to accommodate for the likelihood of additional upgrades and capabilities. Not saying such space will always be used in future, but that it certainly is ensured that it can be used should the need arise.

@Penguin , I am impressed by your authority on naval matters. You look like someone who is in the field.
Can you point me out to an introduction page of yours?

The A-5 said:

@Dillinger @Penguin - Kind sirs, if there is space & weight saved for another set of 32 Barak-8s, then why didn't the morons
install it all right now? If IN actually wants it sooner or later, it serves to just put in a VLS there - let the IN command
decide whether to put missiles in them right now or not.

If IN doesn't need any more space, then why was it designed like that? They might as well put provision for a
set of wings & jet engine, for when IN decides to make ships fly

--

And also, Dillinger sir, are you sure about Barak-8ER for P-15B with 110-120km range?

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I have no idea about whether the Barak-8ER will find place on the 15B, all I can say is that there indeed is a Barak-8ER with a range of 120km.



The spare space is meant for any future upgrade or retro-fitment, it was not exercised because 32 LR-SAM were felt to be adequate, which is not really a surprise, most ships carry just as many, even the SM-2/Aster-30 equipped vessels of Europe carry a similar number of LR-SAM, although the Kolkata carries a larger number of AShMs than said vessels.

The Kolkata lags behind in a solid state 3D VSR and a layered CIWS system (guns+QR SR-SAM).

Indischer said:

@Dillinger Sir, when are you planning to tell A-5 your age?<sorry abt the off-topic post>

To answer your question, ships and aircraft always carry empty space in their superstructure/fuselage. The percentage of free-space might be as high as 30% of overall space in some designs. This is a deliberate effort to accommodate for the likelihood of additional upgrades and capabilities. Not saying such space will always be used in future, but that it certainly is ensured that it can be used should the need arise.

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Zabaan pe lagaam!

Although a very nice and succinct explanation.

@The A-5 Waise what's with the "Kind sir" thing, It applies to Penguin, not to me, I'm probably younger than you or of about the same age.

Dillinger said:

I did, its hogwash, the "extra rounds" talk is simply born out of the fact that the Kolkata has place for hosting an extra farm of 2*8 VLU for the Barak-8s IF the IN opts for it, the design allows for that. There is no "hydraulic system", again VLUs CANNOT be reloaded beneath deck, there is no apparatus for lifting the rounds from the below deck magazine to the top deck, there are no cranes for lifting the spent canisters from the VLU's open hatch and lowering the fresh round in. So unless the IN is completely bonkers they will not opt for such an arrangement. The laws of reality do not change with differing time zones. The extra rounds are just that, space left fallow for retro fitting extra VLUs if the IN so wishes. AND before people jump up and down about rotary systems, rotary systems are not reloadable VLUs and this (the Barak-8's launch mechanism) is indeed a VLU.

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I just can't get it. That "Pamphlet Hound" Prasun Sengupta gets quoted as some kinda technical authority. At best he is a "cut-paste" expert.
The whole idea of the VLS being reloaded under-deck or at Sea from the top is just 'over-the-top' or in simpler English; is utter BILGE.