FC-31 v2.0 First flight 2016.12.23

[帅的一匹]

Kindly google about it, and what Dassault is developing after Rafale.

They might directly jump into sixth generation development.

If there isn't any major engine tech breakthrough, the so call 6th gen/ 7th gen/ 8 gen is useless. If China can develop a anti-gravity engine, we can prevail.

The current development of a fighter jet is constrained by the engine limits. Turbo fan model has hit glass ceiling.

 

[LeGenD]

There needs to be a distinction between "design" and an aircraft project as a holistic entity. The F-22's airframe or "design" is indigenous (as are the J-20, FC-31, & T-50 to their respective countries of origin), but no complex military platform today avoids sourcing at least some of its subcomponents from international vendors.

You have a point here.

However, it is important to understand that American manufacturing industry is sufficient to develop all components of an aircraft at home. Industry is the key word here because a number of domestic companies might be involved in the development of an advanced aircraft and a few sub-components might be acquired from subsidiaries of foreign vendors but these components are also manufactured in the US. This is how things are for the design of aircraft in the US on average. In the end, foreign input is not necessary.

Here are the details of components of F-22 Raptor aircraft and their respective suppliers: http://www.airframer.com/aircraft_detail.html?model=F-22_Raptor

Now, exceptions are also there such as F-35 project. However, American contribution constitutes its backbone (heavy-lifting).

----

Chinese manufacturing industry comprises of a large number of foreign vendors and domestic firms are select-few (but increasing with passage of time). This implies that scores of sub-components and even entire components would be sourced from foreign vendors for the design of a seemingly domestic aircraft. For example, Russian engines are commonly used in Chinese aircraft. Similarly, Russian input is often involved in design of other components and even avionics. Though Chinese are learning.

However, it is too early to expect Chinese to match the expertise of Americans in different areas. Otherwise, China would be developing every component at home and quality would be world-class.

 

[BHarwana]

You have a point here.

However, it is important to understand that American manufacturing industry is sufficient to develop all components of an aircraft at home. Industry is the key word here because a number of domestic companies might be involved in the development of an advanced aircraft and a few sub-components might be acquired from subsidiaries of foreign vendors but these components are also manufactured in the US. This is how things are for the design of aircraft in the US on average.

Here are the details of components of F-22 Raptor aircraft and their respective suppliers: http://www.airframer.com/aircraft_detail.html?model=F-22_Raptor

Now, exceptions are also there such as F-35 project. However, American expertise have been invaluable for it.

----

Chinese manufacturing industry comprises of a large number of foreign vendors and domestic firms are select-few. This implies that scores of sub-components and even components would be sourced from foreign vendors. For example, Russian engines are commonly used in Chinese aircraft. Similarly, Russian input is often involved in design of other components and even avionics. Though Chinese are learning.

However, it is too early to expect Chinese to match the expertise of Americans in different areas. Otherwise, China would be developing every component at home and not buy stuff from others.

F 35 is a junk, Why are you so persistent about it, For Pakistan the issue is not about acquiring F 35, They 5th gen means we need the entire tech all the collaborating system Data collection center plus all the RADAR and most important the integration of DATA system. Stealth means that the detection radar is separate from the fighter either the radar service is provided by early warning system of an accompanying fighter jet. Because on board RADAR is beacon it self. Americans will never provide us with the whole system. If get on board with the Turkish development for the 5th gen that means we will acquire the fighter jet but still we will need to make every thing else our selves because Turkey is already on board with the F 35 project. We need to get along with the Chinese for J-31 that is a relevant option. USA always blackmail us and sanction us if try to fall out for Pakistan's personal interest this has happened to us in the past. If turkey opt out of F35 project we might get some kind of collaboration with Turkey moving towards PAK FC50 the Russian or Chinese system. Turkey seems like moving away from the F 35 deal currently but I am not confirming it.
Currently the F 35 program is in trouble. F 22 is a better option for Pakistan but USA has no plan of selling that product any where. It is expensive but stand alone unit of operation make it a better option for us but again yet the competition SU 35S is cheaper faster more agile.

 

[Akasa]

You have a point here.

However, it is important to understand that American manufacturing industry is sufficient to develop all components of an aircraft at home. Industry is the key word here because a number of domestic companies might be involved in the development of an advanced aircraft and a few sub-components might be acquired from subsidiaries of foreign vendors but these components are also manufactured in the US. This is how things are for the design of aircraft in the US on average.

There is no doubt that domestic US supply chains can cover all of the subsystems used aboard the F-22. Whether every single chip, screen, or whatever aboard the platforms are actually domestically-sourced is another question. Importing non-critical components for economic or timesaving purposes does not put the F-22/J-20 at any risk of underperforming parts or "backdoors" for espionage (assuming proper inspection and vetting) nor does it tie down the entire project to the imported component.

Here are the details of components of F-22 Raptor aircraft and their respective suppliers: http://www.airframer.com/aircraft_detail.html?model=F-22_Raptor

I'm not talking about major subsystems of the F-22. Being such high-stakes projects, it should come as no surprise that the F-22, F-35, FC-31, J-20, and T-50 source their major technological components from domestic institutions (Russian engines on J-20 are a different story). What I was referring to were the minute subcomponents here and there, such as, for example, a computer chip inside a display channel, or some bearings for landing gear, etc.

Now, exceptions are also there such as F-35 project. However, American expertise have been invaluable for it.

----

Chinese manufacturing industry comprises of a large number of foreign vendors and domestic firms are select-few.

What aspect of the "manufacturing industry" are you referring to?

and even avionics. Though Chinese are learning.

The Chinese have been using their own avionics since the early 2000s. Judging from the developments arising from the J-10X/J-11X programs, the Chinese have fully caught up and perhaps even surpassed the Russians in this regard.

However, it is too early to expect Chinese to match the expertise of Americans in different areas. Otherwise, China would be developing every component at home and not buy stuff from others.

Besides engines, what other "components" of the FC-31 were bought elsewhere?

(Update: the V2.0 prototype uses Chinese WS-13E engines)

 

[LeGenD]

Hi,these fake Pakistanis don't even bother to do basic research and just jump to conclusion based on perception. It's something irritating to speak to them even presented with facts and they purposely avoid the point and blindly wishfully just wanted to present their points.

I once talk to a Pakistanis who brag Pakistan is capable of producing modern fighter jet by themselves. I ask for modern hi tech wind tunnel available in Pakistan and he give me a tiny wind tunnel only capable of simulating small projectile as proof of pakistan wind tunnel for modern testing.. While you keep telling them the facts about criteria of producing modern jet. They will twist their way and just sprout rubbish just to suit their own ear. They is a reason why even India need to send their Kaveri engine to Russia to test for their LCA project.

They are still the Pakistanis who still think Pakistan future ties with western and they are too blind to see the advancement of China. The J-20 has not a single component from Russian. Even the engine is WS-10B as many claim of AL-31F engine. How can AL-3F engine allows picking up attitude without igniting after burner?

How many 3D printing has input into PAFKA by Russian? Zero.

First of all, condescending attitude is not helpful. We can discuss these matters like gentlemen.

Secondly, I am under no illusion regarding Industrial capability of Pakistan. We lag behind China in a number of areas, perhaps many. However, Pakistani armed forces have used western equipment and are in the position to provide some insight to the Chinese in regards to development of a weapon system that Pakistan may procure from China.

Let us look at the example JF-17 Thunder. This is a joint-venture of Pakistan and China which implies that input from both countries is involved in its design and some of its components are acquired from Russian vendors because neither Pakistan and nor China had the expertise to develop those components of standards that would satisfy Pakistani requirements.

American tech industry is most advanced at the moment, followed by European and Russian, and than China. However, this might change in the future to some extent. Time will tell.

 

[Beast]

They might directly jump into sixth generation development.

If there isn't any major engine tech breakthrough, the so call 6th gen/ 7th gen/ 8 gen is useless. If China can develop a anti-gravity engine, we can prevail.

The current development of a fighter jet is constrained by the engine limits. Turbo fan model has hit glass ceiling.

So far there is no definite definition of 6th fighter. Claiming they might jump direct into 6th gen fighter is more like an excuse to mask their impotency.

 

[BHarwana]

American tech industry is most advanced at the moment, followed by European and Russian, and than China. However, this might change in the future to some extent. Time will tell.

What are you smoking.
Till now America has no successful 5th gen fighter jet. Just name one. F 35 is grounded for flight. F 22 has been stopped out of production. What else do they have than good commercial and graphics.

 

[Beast]

First of all, condescending attitude is not helpful. We can discuss these matters like gentlemen.

Secondly, I am under no illusion regarding Industrial capability of Pakistan. We lag behind China in a number of areas, perhaps many. However, Pakistani armed forces have used western equipment and are in the position to provide some insight to the Chinese in regards to development of a weapon system that Pakistan may procure from China.

Let us look at the example JF-17 Thunder. This is a joint-venture of Pakistan and China which implies that input from both countries is involved in its design and some of its components are acquired from Russian vendors because neither Pakistan and nor China had the expertise to develop those components of standards that would satisfy Pakistani requirements.

American tech industry is most advanced at the moment, followed by European and Russian, and than China. However, this might change in the future to some extent. Time will tell.

Yes, by ignoring some facts and then paint the inability plainly into politics and power play?

Using 2 decades old data to judge China current technology?

I don't think you have a sense of current development in China. And you are not even in the best position to gauge China military advancement. I think indeed you are illusion.

 

[LeGenD]

F 35 is a junk, Why are you so persistent about it, For Pakistan the issue is not about acquiring F 35, They 5th gen means we need the entire tech all the collaborating system Data collection center plus all the RADAR and most important the integration of DATA system. Stealth means that the detection radar is separate from the fighter either the radar service is provided by early warning system of an accompanying fighter jet. Because on board RADAR is beacon it self. Americans will never provide us with the whole system. If get on board with the Turkish development for the 5th gen that means we will acquire the fighter jet but still we will need to make every thing else our selves because Turkey is already on board with the F 35 project. We need to get along with the Chinese for J-31 that is a relevant option. USA always blackmail us and sanction us if try to fall out for Pakistan's personal interest this has happened to us in the past. If turkey opt out of F35 project we might get some kind of collaboration with Turkey moving towards PAK FC50 the Russian or Chinese system. Turkey seems like moving away from the F 35 deal currently but I am not confirming it.
Currently the F 35 program is in trouble. F 22 is a better option for Pakistan but USA has no plan of selling that product any where. It is expensive but stand alone unit of operation make it a better option for us but again yet the competition SU 35S is cheaper faster more agile.

F-35 is a junk? The credibility of your argument ends right here. Full stop.

I am not expecting Americans to provide us their state-of-the-art weapon systems. I am just pointing out it is too early to expect Chinese designs to be as capable as F-22 and F-35. Chinese industrial capability might be impressive but they still lag behind American in a number of areas. This fact is apparent to anybody who has experience with both Chinese and American systems.

 

[BHarwana]

too early to expect Chinese designs to be as capable as F-22 and F-35

WO WO WO what are they capable of?????
They don't have a working software for them. Grow up man

 

[LeGenD]

Yes, by ignoring some facts and then paint the inability plainly into politics and power play?

Using 2 decades old data to judge China current technology?

I don't think you have a sense of current development in China. And you are not even in the best position to gauge China military advancement. I think indeed you are illusion.

Right.

So that is why Chinese products have such wonderful quality on average? Even an expensive Chinese product has components of questionable quality in them (I know this from personal experience). Heck, just look at those locomotives that you provided us.

Yes, Chinese military-grade stuff would be of higher quality than consumer stuff but you aren't fooling me in this matter.

Let us start with the engines first. So how good are Chinese engines in comparison to American engines for automobiles and aircraft? Enlighten.

 

[BHarwana]

F-35 is a junk? The credibility of your argument ends right here. Full stop.

They are depending on Japan now for much of the electronics of the F 35 after failing to provide the stuff them self. A prototype of F 35 was delivered to Japan to do the research.

5 Gen is difficult tech America need much more research on it to make it successful. F 22 was not full stealth. the on board RADAR that every fighter jet has is the very thing that compromises stealth. Putting a supercomputer makes a Jet heavy that computer is responsible for switching on or off the RADAR to attain stealth and with out it they cannot detect any of the enemy jets so there is a new problem. That computer made f 22 have two engines and thus increasing the cost. In F35 case the are using a separate plane with a computer and RADAR and integrating the info is giving them problems. They have spent billions and are stuck on how to go forward. 5 Gen till now is a dream. Please stop making people idots with just saying that F 35 is better and a done project.

 

[帅的一匹]

So far there is no definite definition of 6th fighter. Claiming they might jump direct into 6th gen fighter is more like an excuse to mask their impotency.

It is not incompetency, it's USA make them dependable. Euro countries had lost ambitious.

 

[The Accountant]

Owens again, nothing sub-micron. Must be another American? Who?

P.S.:

U.S. Precision Machine Tool Industry Is No Longer A Global Competetitive Force | Manufacturing and Technology News

"There are six American companies dedicated to producing five-axis machine tools, and at least 20 in China. Five-axis tools are used for the production of precision components in the aerospace industry...."

BIS found that half of the commercial five-axis machine tools are purchased for government contracts. The majority of these purchases are used solely for the purpose of government work. "Non-U.S. produced models made up 64 percent of five-axis simultaneous control machine tool models in the inventory of U.S. government contractors,"

Critical Technology Assessment: Five Axis Simultaneous Control Machine Tools (p. 48)

Yes this is the one who developed T1000, Toray, good job. But wait, when does Toray, native name 東レ株式会社, become American?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toray_Industries


No, the question was do Americans supply themselves everything, 100% indigenous, you said yes, didn't you?

Brother, lets agree to disagree with @LeGenD ... I think what he is trying to say is in technical know how USA is ahead of China as of now ... I also think that being mature person we should accept our shortcomings .. China is behind in engine techs.... When China is still testing J-20 ... USA F22 raptor are battle tested ...

However, I completely acknowledge that pace of development of technologies in China are far too great in comparison to other nations and even today in some of the tech China has already surpassed USA for e.g. in anti-ship ballistic missiles,,, hypersonic glide vehicles ... etc etc ...

Brother remember most of Pakistanis trust China much more than USA or west ... any critics on China is for the better as we want China to progress even further ... as you can see Pakistani's critics on Pakistan is highest as we care about Pakistan ... similarly we care about China ...

So lets agree to disagree ...

 

[BHarwana]

Right.

So that is why Chinese products have such wonderful quality on average? Even an expensive Chinese product has components of questionable quality in them (I know this from personal experience). Heck, just look at those locomotives that you provided us.

Yes, Chinese military-grade stuff would be of higher quality than consumer stuff but you aren't fooling me in this matter.

Let us start with the engines first. So how good are Chinese engines in comparison to American engines for automobiles and aircraft? Enlighten.

Why do you think the first stealth jet F117 was only a Bomber and only carried laser guided bombs. the on Board RADAR compromises Stealth.