JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 4]

[Donatello]

I have learned one thing in my life!

Do not close the doors of learning. Once you put your ego upfront, your demise is inevitable. Pakistan is not a great country rather a third world country. However, this criticism is like a bullet which will help people wake up. Educated oversees Pakistanis are like gem in your plate, trust me. Let the flood of knowledge come in (Oversees Pakistanis), let it destroy the bad minds because at last the flood of knowledge will act like a fertilizer.

All the genius minds (Pakistani) got their education from abroad which means that their are serious lapse in local education system.

Well, i would sort of dis agree, Pakistan is what made our foundations of learning, We go for advanced learning some come back some never look back.

Typical example of Prof Abdus Salam, the only Pakistani to ever win a Nobel Prize. He raised and educated in Pakistan, went abroad for further studies. You cannot say he won the Nobel Prize just because he went abroad. What made him the real genius was his past and hard work all of which is from Pakistan.



I am studying abroad, and would one day love to help Pakistan. The problem is, after looking at DR Abdul Qadeer and how we treated him, it makes me kinda sad and angry. We mustn't give up hope, as perseverance is one thing that we have only recently learnt to experience.


"I have found 5000 ways of not making a light bulb -Thomas Edison"....just imagine had he given up on 4,999th attempt....but he didn't.


Now back to topic....

 

[SekrutYakhni]

Well, i would sort of dis agree, Pakistan is what made our foundations of learning, We go for advanced learning some come back some never look back.

Typical example of Prof Abdus Salam, the only Pakistani to ever win a Nobel Prize. He raised and educated in Pakistan, went abroad for further studies. You cannot say he won the Nobel Prize just because he went abroad. What made him the real genius was his past and hard work all of which is from Pakistan.



I am studying abroad, and would one day love to help Pakistan. The problem is, after looking at DR Abdul Qadeer and how we treated him, it makes me kinda sad and angry. We mustn't give up hope, as perseverance is one thing that we have only recently learnt to experience.


"I have found 5000 ways of not making a light bulb -Thomas Edison"....just imagine had he given up on 4,999th attempt....but he didn't.


Now back to topic....

Failure is not an option. I have never failed in my life, ever. I missed my aim couple of times but I stood up. Behind every close door, there is a r a t hole waiting for you to explore. You just need to have a will to fight against odds. Remember one thing, failure is not an option. Do not regret your decisions because think about the consequences before hand. Similarly, regret is not an option. Anyways, back to the topic!
^^I am still nineteen years old!

 

[muse]

need a new picture of the JF17 - newer than farnborough

 

[Quwa]

We tend to forget a few things about JF-17 and its objectives when we discuss Pakistan's industrial and R&D expertise/disabilities-etc. Firstly, JF-17 was conceived as a platform that could undertake modern day missions with contemporary systems. The fact that it can or will be equipped with modern precision-guided A2G munitions, modern BVR-AAM and 5th-gen WVR AAM, utilize HMD/S and AESA, etc clearly indicates its success as a concept. In practice, the fact that its comparatively low costs in terms of acquisition and I'd imagine maintenance (in comparison to Western or even Russian fighters) signifies its achievement.

Other matters such as original design, radical concepts, etc, are non-issues at this point...why? Well only 1-2 years ago we had one PAF squadron fly A-5s with unguided rockets. But within the next year or so, that same squadron will utilize a force-multiplier boasting (1) greater payload and range, equipped with (2) precision-guided bombs for proper strike missions, (3) able to hold its line with BVR and modern WVR against threats, (4) communicate & exchange data with AEW&C, land forces (army units, special forces, etc) and perhaps even UAV/AUAV and a target-acquisition aircraft.

Tell me...what the hell kind of jump is that, and has that ever occurred in PAF from a mainstay fighter? In its prime, the F-104s, Mirages and F-16s were PAF's sword-tips, not mainstays...JF-17 is the mainstay but it is taking each A-5 & F-7 squadron a leap of 2 and a half generations easily. Whoever in Pakistan who conceived JF-17 to assume such a fantastic and IMHO ideal position was brilliant...especially to have saturated this lower-costing fighter with so much capability as well as potential.

As it stands today, the basic Block-I can and will be BVR and precision-strike capable with data-link...but Block-II will have AESA radar, HMD/S, next-gen weapon-systems, and ability of doing strategic/long-range stand-off strike missions with derivatives of Ra'ad and the H-4...next we're talking local innovations in league of the Sagem AASM or MBDA Storm Shadow. Pakistan is working with Turkey on precision-guided bomb and precision-guided cluster-bomblet technology...imagine what could result from combining the ALCM with precision-cluster tech. Other probabilities include specialized variants of twin-seat JF-17s...such as committed ECM/EW fighters (similar to F-16D and EA-18G)...list goes on.

The bigger reason why we don't get very far in innovation and R&D is NOT because of a lack of initiative in of itself (as you see in many Gulf Arab states)...but because of a lack of funding. As I said earlier, the Pakistani methodology truly is to learn the "hows and whys" of things...whether designing, developing & manufacturing fighters, nuclear reactors, ships, cars, engines, etc - anything. But you learn that in the theoretical sense, but you cannot practically produce and test such ideas without taking risks, and without a lot of money, you cannot take a lot of risks!

If the Pakistani state was budgeting as much cash as Saudi Arabia or UAE, I bet you that we wouldn't be asking around for nuclear technology. Why? Because we'd be investing and taking the risks into developing our own nuclear reactor technology...we wouldn't mind spending the couple decades teething out the tedious problems, going through endless trials and quality tests. All it does is produce more jobs and more demand as the years go on...and that has a catalyst in having scientists stay in the country or even have immigrants from other countries try joining!

IMHO the blame should be set on two things...

1. The political leadership and the socio-economic elite. Their symbiotic connection has strangled the country...we can't even tax those who clearly by even clear Islamic evidences be taxed! I am talking about agricultural feudal lords, people who own huge estates, people who amassed a ton of physical wealth (in property, minerals, etc), and so on. Forget about how many fighters PAF buys or how many tanks PA gets, its all in hell IRRELEVANT to the fact that dozens of billions of dollars ESCAPE the PUBLIC REVENUE NET and that hundreds of billions more on amazing labour, talent, natural resources, irrigation, etc, are never yielded. Lets look at the figures here and not get caught up in band aid "solutions" which only lead to more problems and avoid the ROOT cause.

2. Lack of moral backbone to do something about the above in the practical and productive sense. Most people complain and show "hot-air pessimism" on these matters, and offer no solutions or insight to a solution whatsoever. They just make matters worse...being critical is fine, but for God's sake lets now actually DO SOMETHING about the problem. We can be very critical against the Pakistani cricket team, but if they don't improve physically, our critical taunts will not change the situation. The other extreme is people venting their frustrations out in the wrong way...instead of being assertive advocates and inspiring examples for change (like the founders of Pakistan), they go off and explode a bomb somewhere or shoot someone (includes religious terrorists, political terrorist/goons, angry party rioters, etc).

 

[MastanKhan]

Well, i would sort of dis agree, Pakistan is what made our foundations of learning, We go for advanced learning some come back some never look back.

Typical example of Prof Abdus Salam, the only Pakistani to ever win a Nobel Prize. He raised and educated in Pakistan, went abroad for further studies. You cannot say he won the Nobel Prize just because he went abroad. What made him the real genius was his past and hard work all of which is from Pakistan.



Sir,

Pakistan had nothing to do with his achievements----that person would have come to the top under any circumstances---.

Just like my uncle---came from basically a household of illeterate parents---some relatives on his side with some education---and him---against all odds---got Phd in nuclear physics from great britain---if I looked at his side of the relatives---would just scratch my head---what happened over there---everyone on his side a 'Paindoo jaangli' and him a math and physics genius.

Nothing would have held him back---. As for you " penumbra "---you do it for your own sake---and don't worry about A Q Khan---he knew what was coming to him.

Just like you cannot hold back nature---same way you cannot hold back on your capabilities---it weill come out for others to see.

 

[MastanKhan]

I have learned one thing in my life!

Do not close the doors of learning. Once you put your ego upfront, your demise is inevitable. Pakistan is not a great country rather a third world country. However, this criticism is like a bullet which will help people wake up. Educated oversees Pakistanis are like gem in your plate, trust me. Let the flood of knowledge come in (Oversees Pakistanis), let it destroy the bad minds because at last the flood of knowledge will act like a fertilizer.

All the genius minds (Pakistani) got their education from abroad which means that their are serious lapse in local education system.

Hi,

You are so correct---our neighbopur india went through the similiar growing pains some 10---15 years ago----when regular indians were anti overseas indians----till they saw the light at the end of the tunnel and the rest is history.

 

[bigenner]

i m in real biggener so im disturbing the thread a little bit

a question

what is BVR Missiles? (properties)
What is AESA Radar?

 

[Sinnerman108]

Sir,

Pakistan had nothing to do with his achievements----that person would have come to the top under any circumstances---.

Just like my uncle---came from basically a household of illeterate parents---some relatives on his side with some education---and him---against all odds---got Phd in nuclear physics from great britain---if I looked at his side of the relatives---would just scratch my head---what happened over there---everyone on his side a 'Paindoo jaangli' and him a math and physics genius.

Nothing would have held him back---. As for you " penumbra "---you do it for your own sake---and don't worry about A Q Khan---he knew what was coming to him.

Just like you cannot hold back nature---same way you cannot hold back on your capabilities---it weill come out for others to see.

MK,
When we were young we were always told of this story of studying under street light
when same couldn't be afforded at home.
We were told stories of writing on "Takhti" and having to walk miles to school.

Those were the success procedures for THEN, and this is NOW.
take away the computer and internet and you will never be able to learn any thing.

The ball game is not the same, stakes are higher and rules are different.

I like to quote a personal experience here:
I tried to raise a project in CDGK. for those who don't know CDGK it's city district government Karachi.

It was based around having a design competition amongst all universities in Pakistan to come up with design guide lines for Civil architecture and to update the century old bylaws.

500,000 for winner and 250,000 each for runner up and a hand shake with Mustafa Kamal and CM.

Simple concept, small project costs less than a 1300cc car.
It was shot down.

I still argue, even if the students had brought up crappy ideas,
even if they had put forward stupid designs,

It was still worth it; for we would have achieved
1. a culture where local academia is asked to furnish solutions to problems.
2. exposure and support to students; just to let them know what ever they are doing is not futile.

To me if this approach could be made law; even if we have to contract foreign consultants; attach a team of local students / engineers with them.

On the contrary study the Burt Rutan Space Ship 1 project.
Study it here Welcome To Scaled Composites

You should see how successfully the Saudis are starting to do it now.

Similar approach is required for almost all projects.

Some very good work has been done, and it can further be improved.

A good working foundation has been put down, by design or luck.

Now is the time to build on this foundation.

 

[mjnaushad]

i m in real biggener so im disturbing the thread a little bit

a question

what is BVR Missiles? (properties)
What is AESA Radar?

Any missile which can hit target beyond visual range is BVR missile....Visual range is 37 KM or 20 Nautical miles......

For AESA read this

In short its a stealthy radar....

For more

Active Electronically Scanned Array - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[SBD-3]

hay mod why dont you make a question thread to avoid such an eventual "Jump" into discussion

 

[araz]

That was my point, we have minds but we can't flourish them due to many reasons.
We need to invest in research and we need to prepare our children that way. For that, change the grass root education system. When our education system will be at par of Germany or any other developed country, only than we will be able to produce thinkers and colourful scientists.

I am not sure whether a radical change in the system of education is required. Text and content wise we are better than the western systems that we so envy. However independant thinking needs to be inculcated and for that the teachers need to be trained.Every where in the world there are days set aside for teaching the trainers. Ever see that in Pakistan.
Look I dont want to digress from the topic at hand. Please feel free to open a new thread and discuss the education needs separately. We can then shift the mails from this thread and continue there.
Araz

 

[araz]

Guys we have a serious case of digression from the topic on hand. Please feel free to open a separate thread and discuss it there. Mastan the GIK institute has initiated studies into metallurgy about nearly twenty yrs ago. We have a decent base for starting off . we are however financially constrained.
Now can we please get back to the topic.
Araz

 

[SekrutYakhni]

Please open this thread:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/current-events-social-issues/69375-education-system.html#post1069711

 

[Bossman]

Hi,

A lot of people when they see something they don't like, they start seeing red in front of their eyes---that is termed as protecting something that has deficiencies---but ego stops us from from making an admission.

What I am telling you guys is to LIBERATE YOURSELF---open yourself up---understand and accept the shortcomings---and don't fight for FAKE PRIDE. Think with a free mind---think and act without a holier than thou attitude.

You people think that putting BAND AIDS over septic sores is going to heal the wounds---and act as if they don't exist.

Coming back---JF 17---a $500 million project tells a lot about the mindset of its designers and manufacturers. There is nothing original about this project---and there ought to be no shame in admitting it---as a matter of fact it ought to be a matter of pride and honor.

Why a matter of pride---because with our limited resources and energy---we and our friends were able to make something for us that has quite a bit of potency in it.

As Santro mentioned----this aircraft is a product of knowing the F 16---the F 7 PG---the mirage---the Grippen---. I beleive that the JF 17 didnot have the bubble canopy because the swedes would really really have been mad at us if it did---. As I have mentioned many a times that pak millitary industrial complex is not into re-inventing the wheel but rather carrying the baton forward on the run.

Regarding our nuclear program---it is otherwise---our engineers were very well trained in the U S , britain, ---my uncle one of the pioneers of nuc program of pakistan and chief engr of installing the nuc reactor in iran at the end of the Shah's regime---a highly trained scientist was trained in britain and u s---. He worked in the U S at a nuclear reactor in the 60's and one of the 100 who is who nuc scientist in the world---. He got ofered a job by israel at that time---got scared and ran back to pakistan.

All the pak nuc scientists were very well trained scientists by the british and the americans. Their work hours in pakistan were based on their similiar habbits of working in the U S---same hours---same number of working days---same number of days off---exactly the same setup that they had in the U S and britain---this is out of first hand knowledge.

Our nuc scientists of that era had an extremely sound knowledge of science and technology---their exposure to working in the world environment made them superstars----.

And you know what----MY UNCLE USED TO SAY THE SAME THING TO ME AT THAT TIME WHAT I AM SAYING TO YOU--he would say---we have nothing---we have no infrastructure---we are lacking in basic fundamentals---we are lackadaisical---we beleive in fake prophets---we create demigods and when our beliefs are shattered---and guess what---I would come back at him swinging---just like you are at me---.

I had a very hatefull relationship with that man---I was as angry as anyone is with me for saying that we are incompetent. Now with time and work experience---I am where he was 30 years ago---and I can admit without any shame that I was wrong---and it does not make me any lesser of a man.

Some of you should do the same---. The first step towards recovery from admitting that there is a problem---.

Mastaan,

Your lack of focus and sense of reality is mind boggling. I think you have enjoyed the California life style of your avatars Cheech and Chong too long and it is impacting your judgement. I am not going to say much about the JF17 because others have already said it and in much better way that I could (read Mark Sein's post). What originality do you want in an airplane design? Do you want the design to take the approach of the LCA and their so called original wing design which has turned the whole project into an unmitigating disaster? Do even understand of how risk is managed in projects like these to ensure success? It is great to talk of original ideas and technologies, but if they increase the possibility of failure of a project, they should not used.

As far as the nuclear program is concerned the first generation of our scientist were all western educated but the second and the third generation are not. We had to start somewhere and it would have been stupid to start from scratch and build inhouse capability if the same was available off the shelf. Now we have a situation that the Western Universities especially US are not giving admissions to Pakistani student in sensitive technologies like nuclear and aeronautics in undergraduate let alone doctrate programs. The new generation of scientist which are coming out are locally trained in institutes like PIEAS or going to Chinese or other non-western Universities.

As I have said earlier, you are stuck in time warp. You spoke to your Uncle 30 years, a lot of water has passed under the bridge since then. Also what you have shared about your achievements in life on this forum does not even qualify you to make the sort of judgements you do.

Finally most of things you say have some element of truth but please do not make sweeping statements and generalization as they reflect very poorly on who you are and why you say the things you say.

 

[Bossman]

Well, i would sort of dis agree, Pakistan is what made our foundations of learning, We go for advanced learning some come back some never look back.

Typical example of Prof Abdus Salam, the only Pakistani to ever win a Nobel Prize. He raised and educated in Pakistan, went abroad for further studies. You cannot say he won the Nobel Prize just because he went abroad. What made him the real genius was his past and hard work all of which is from Pakistan.



Sir,

Pakistan had nothing to do with his achievements----that person would have come to the top under any circumstances---.

Just like my uncle---came from basically a household of illeterate parents---some relatives on his side with some education---and him---against all odds---got Phd in nuclear physics from great britain---if I looked at his side of the relatives---would just scratch my head---what happened over there---everyone on his side a 'Paindoo jaangli' and him a math and physics genius.

Nothing would have held him back---. As for you " penumbra "---you do it for your own sake---and don't worry about A Q Khan---he knew what was coming to him.

Just like you cannot hold back nature---same way you cannot hold back on your capabilities---it weill come out for others to see.

You are wrong again. Most of these scientific pioneers were identified as talent by Pakistan and send to study in the West on Pakistan government scholarships or scholarships arranged through other governments in the 50s and the 60s. Also they all had their earlier education in Pakistan. This is no different from the approach taken by India. Abdus Salam had very strong roots in Pakistan especially at Government College Lahore. Even when he had left Pakistan he was unofficially consulting on our nuclear program. All our great pioneers never forgot where their roots were and always recognised them. Who are you to take that away from them. I bet your Uncle was also one of those who sent by the government to study abroad.

Your Paindoo Jaangli statement provides interesting insights. You think, simply by living in the West, makes your superior? What are your achievements in life? Selling produce or used cars or building material to goras? So if a Pakistani does that in Pakistan he is Paindoo Jaangli and you do it in California you are Mr. Know it all?